87: Pediapal & Auralog – Adrian Eves

Adrian Eves: I want to make a cool mechanic to the conference because I wanted to have something unique that kind of gives it a bit of identity. What Swiftsonic is going to do, it's going to do two talks and a break. There's going to be an opener speaker and a headliner speaker. The headliner speaker is somebody that has a pretty lengthy speaking career and the opener is someone who is a first time speaker, ideally. I told them that 90-minute space is for them to use as creatively as they desire or not at all. And I hope that it helps those folks develop some good mentor-mentee and friendship relationships. I think that there's a lot of potential to happen if I'm not trying to control it. Charlie Chapman: Welcome to Launched. I'm Charlie Chapman, and today I'm excited to bring you the developer and conference organizer behind the health apps, Pediapal and Auralog, Adrian Eves. Adrian, welcome to the show. Adrian Eves: Thanks, Charlie. I'm actually really, really, really excited to be here. I've always wanted to be on Launched and I've seen so many people go through it. So being invited was a dream come true and I'm still kind of freaking out. I think I have tremors from excitement. Charlie Chapman: Well, I have a confession to make to you right now, actually. So you and I, we're pretty good friends. Just get that out of the gate here. And a thing that people who do this kind of thing, like hosting a podcast, will often find themselves in a position of is, when you have somebody who you're close friends with, who you're not as embarrassed to ask things of, you kind of keep them in your back pocket for a time when you know you're going to need an emergency guest. And so, you've kind of been sitting in that backlog for a while as my like, "Yeah, I could ask him on now, but if I need him in a pinch, he's a person I know I can count on." And so, I did a live episode in Finland at Arctic Conf, and it was with Frederik Riedel. Great episode, but my audio recording failed. The video worked, but I didn't have good audio. So we're going to rerecord, which is fine. Sometimes I think that makes for better episodes anyway, but that meant that I'm down an episode and I kind of need to get one quickly. I didn't have any in the can. And so finally, your waiting is over. I've sort of felt bad leaving you sitting there. But I knew that I could just jump on and we could talk. Well, I know we can talk about anything for a while. Really, the goal of this episode is to keep us actually on task here. And so, that's my job though. Adrian Eves: A lot of good things have happened from happy little accidents. I'm like a huge believer in the happy little accident philosophy. Charlie Chapman: One of the things I started doing with this show before we jump into your whole story, is to have you give a quick elevator pitch for your apps. That way ... Because I often just forget to get to that point because a lot of apps evolve out of these long stories. And so really, really quickly, before we get into your backstory, can you give me the quick pitch on Pediapal, and then on Auralog? Adrian Eves: Yes. Actually, because I'm so nervous right now, I pulled it up. So Paul Hudson likes to put little Easter eggs in his books about his friends and stuff. And so, he was clever and sneaky enough to put one in for Pediapal, conveniently in the elevator pitch section. So I'm going to read what he wrote. He wrote, "Pediapal lets you track all your family's health measurements easily." And that's a great pitch, to be completely honest. It's a very good one-liner. I would've taken probably two paragraphs, just off the top of my head. So yeah, it's really just designed to make life easier for parents, especially with multiple children, keeping track of measurements and medicines and the like. It's a health hub for your kids. Charlie Chapman: Yeah. That's a great way to phrase it. And then, what about Auralog? Adrian Eves: So I've always suffered from migraines and I've needed something that I can use in a pinch when I'm hurting and I can't read anything. So Auralog is designed to be the most low effort, yet high-reward migraine app there is. And I kind of noticed an emergent pattern with these two apps. So I have ADHD, I've been diagnosed with it since I was a small child. And I think both of these apps come from a place where they try to make managing these things easier and a little more attractive to do so. Pediapal tries to keep everything in one place. Auralog tries to make a painful thing incredibly easy and rewarding to use. Charlie Chapman: Awesome. So now, let's kick off the show the way I've kicked off the show for years at this point, which is asking you three questions to get everybody to know you. And that is where you're from? Do you have a formal education related to what you do? And then, what did you do before you started building these indie apps? Adrian Eves: Okay. So where I'm from, it's kind of a complicated question. I currently live in Mobile. I lived all over in different parts of the US, especially on the Eastern side- Charlie Chapman: Mobile is in Alabama for- Adrian Eves: Mobile, Alabama. My bad. Sorry. I'm used to just casually throwing it up, being like, "Yeah, I live in Mobile." Yeah, Mobile, Alabama, but I think my favorite place I've lived is Santa Clara, California. I love it. It has a special place in my heart. So I studied software engineering at Auburn University. It was really cool because I got incredibly hyped up for it because Tim Cook came to visit and they said he wouldn't be- Charlie Chapman: Yeah, that's his alma mater, right? Adrian Eves: Yeah, yeah. Charlie Chapman: Yeah. Adrian Eves: And so with that and I met him anyway. It was one of the few times I broke a rule because I was like, "When is this going to happen again?" And I had to tell him thank you for all that he did. He's really inspired me and he was like, "Keep at it." And I was like, "Okay." And I graduated. So Tim Cook, if you're listening, I kept at it. And then, how did I get to do indie app? It's a really, really long, curvy road because I have so many different interests, new ones pop up each week. The TLD around that is I have had a long and very fortunate career with things, especially building websites or whatever. And I've learned that I'm happiest when I'm genuinely helping people or expressing my creative ability to its fullest extent. And so, I actually got a job with Apple. I worked on the accessibility team and that was just really fulfilling work. And so- Charlie Chapman: And actually, I want to ... Just because I know this story already, I think there's a little nugget in there that's also a useful thing for people to hear, which is like part of the way you got that job, obviously, interviews and all the typical things, but you had done some community legwork before you joined Apple, right? Do you want to talk about that? Adrian Eves: I think it's funny you say legwork because I genuinely love just being a part of wherever people are and what's happening. And the way it worked out was, yeah, so I did iOS Dev Happy Hour really early on when it got started- Charlie Chapman: Just a background on that, because I was actually sort of part of it at the very beginning, I just now remembered. But during the pandemic, we were all sad. That's a good way to put it. Some people solved that by starting podcasts, which is what I kind of did, but normal people found ways to get people together. And a group of folks started basically a Zoom call that slowly grew and he called it iOS Dev Happy Hour and it just grew and grew and grew. And you were one of the early organizers for that, right? Is that the right word? Adrian Eves: Yeah. So it was Allen. And then, I was lucky that he let me helped him, I was like, "Can I please help you?" I just love helping people and being involved in things. I think I just can't be bored. My family has always said that I have to learn how to be bored and I just refuse, but Allen was really gracious and let me help. And then Frank Foster joined around the same time that I did. And yeah, it's had some pretty cool lineages. And so now the correct stop is Alex Silver, Mikaela Caron, and Chris Wu, they've joined us as well. Charlie Chapman: It's usually Saturday afternoon my time. Adrian Eves: Yeah. Charlie Chapman: But pretty much ... is it once a month? Adrian Eves: Well, we do once a month, yeah. Charlie Chapman: But during the pandemic, that became this hangout place for iOS developers. And it felt like that community in particular, the organizers sort of became a revolving door because people would be helping out. They would get to know a bunch of people and then all of a sudden, they'd be like, "Ah, I have to go. I just got a job at a fruit company." And then new people would kind of come in and you were sort of part of that lineage, right? Adrian Eves: Yeah, no, it was very cool. It was very fortunate. Actually, one of the other co-hosts at the time, Ting Becker, she saw that they were looking for some on the accessibility team and she put me in the mentions. I would've never been so bold to go in the mentions and be like, "Pick me." I was like, "Oh, I'm way too far away from that for a career or whatever." But then one conversation led to another conversation, led to another conversation and it ended up working out. And it was really awesome. It's one of the best teams I've ever been a part of. And it really kind of ... If your passion to do something is a flame, it turned that into a full on fire. And so, that was really cool. And I'm so grateful to everyone on the accessibility team, even now who still put up with me when I surprised, show up in their labs. Charlie Chapman: And so your time spent doing that, obviously you can't go into details at what you did at Apple, but the focus was on, from everybody I talked to on that team, it really seems like the focus is on, all right, we have this big bucket of technologies, what can we do to make the lives of our users and particularly users who have unique situations they have to deal with, how can we make their lives easier? And sometimes it's really simple things like inverting colors or whatever, and sometimes it's these complicated algorithmic things like the motion dots that fly around on the screen. I imagine that was extremely rewarding work. Adrian Eves: No, absolutely. It was. If anyone knows me, you know that I love the Legend of Zelda. And one of the things I love about the Legend of Zelda is- Charlie Chapman: It was basically a ticking clock to see how long until Legend of Zelda got brought up on this podcast. Adrian Eves: But the reason I bring it up is one of the satisfying things about it is you have these dungeons that present really interesting problems, usually around a central mechanic or an item. Accessibility really felt like a unique set of problems to solve. You can be really creative with it. And so I think it activated the same part of my brain because everyone there, even now, are doing such creative solutions to problems and even new things, get a lot of, "Wow, that's really cool. That's really new." But after a year or so, you can hardly imagine your life without them, especially if you rely upon them. And so I think that's a good sign of making something really well and solving solutions really, really well and in a lasting way. Charlie Chapman: I really like seeing that work coming out constantly because it's a nice reminder of not everything we do has to be targeted at a business goal that moves some key metric higher for revenue, downstream revenue or engagement or something like that. Sometimes you can spend time and money and energy just making things better. And I do think in the long term that it is good for the business, but even if it's not, it's just good for people. And that's ... software development can be that. It's not just MRR juicing. Adrian Eves: The MRR juicing is pretty nice. Charlie Chapman: Yeah. Money is also good. I work at the money company. We love money as well. This is not a knock on that, but I like having a good mix of everything in the- Adrian Eves: Yeah, yeah. No, but that team is great and I'm so grateful to have been a part of it. Those people ... The products were great, but the people who I got to work with really shaped a core part of who I am even though. And so I hope that they all know that how grateful I am for them. Charlie Chapman: While you're at Apple, you can't obviously do your own sort of indie projects, at least not that you can publish. Had you done anything before you started at Apple? Adrian Eves: Not really, although I talked about it a lot. They like, "Oh, I'm going to do it this year. I'm going to ship something this year." And then I was like, okay- Charlie Chapman: I think all of us have been in that part of our careers where it's always an idea. Maybe you've even hit new project in Xcode a dozen times. Adrian Eves: I think what I did with Apple, because I knew the rules around distribution or whatever, so I wasn't even like ... It was nice to take a break from, "Oh, I got to make something." I got allotted to more of making music and stuff, so I made a lot more video game soundtrack tunes and I practiced playing guitar and banjo and stuff for my own kind of folky backtracks. So it was a cool time then. That stuff never going to see the light of day, but I enjoyed it. Charlie Chapman: But then, so after your time at Apple though, you got a job at another software development company doing iOS work. Like you said, you always talked about doing indie developments like a lot of people do, but what was the spark that started the sort of process of like, "Hey, I'm actually going to really do this thing and get a product out there." Adrian Eves: So that's a really good question and I think it was honestly a bit of necessity. So I worked at Disney. I had a great time there, worked on some really cool stuff. Again, I got to use my accessibility, knowledge, and that was really fun, but I was part of their layoffs and that's a thing that happens to people and I bear them no ill will. I do feel for the people responsible for those decisions. But I had a conversation with Paul when I was feeling pretty mopey about it. And he said, "At the very least, you need to make an indie app so that way you always have something you can fall back on and start to grow up now. So that way if you find yourself in this situation again, it can help lessen the below." Charlie Chapman: A financial safety net. Adrian Eves: Yeah, yeah. And I knew that I wasn't going to publish something and everyone was going to go, "Oh man, yes, this is it." Because I'm going to be so for real, Pediapal version 1.0 was not it. I redesigned it last summer and I'm a lot more proud of it now than I am then. I'm happy that I made something and finally shipped it, but that's a story for later. But yeah, and so I really did some soul-searching, kind of like, I really want to identify a problem to solve what I want to do. And I got some false starts and some other things because I couldn't really see how they would help. And then Pediapal came about because I kept getting lost in all these notes that my partner and I would share and I was like ... My child who's like three years old, I know she's not like 11 inches. I was like, "So that's like an old note. So I was like, "Problem, problem." And so I got to work making Pediapal and that's kind of what we use and it's really nice. And I had some supportive friends who still helped test it out. And so, it's been really, really awesome that it was really good. I think it was a really good first experience. And also shout out to our mutual friend Mustafa for helping me with the harder cloud kit stuff of a Pediapal because I was really struggling. And he had given a talk in Singapore, I believe, where he had all these force unwraps in his CloudKit solution. So he gave it to me as is. And I was like, Okay, Mustafa, I know we got a little force unwraps here, but can we look at it together? And he gave me so much of his time and effort. It was really nice. And he published it into MY CloudKit or MyCloudKit, because it has his initials. And if you are somebody that wants to have some easy CloudKit stuff, it's really adaptable to anything like core data, Swift data, pretty much any persistence model. You can also double it up with CloudKit. I recommend checking out his repo. Fantastic. I can vouch. I've loved it. It's evolved quite nicely. And so he's very talented. So again, to kind of wrap up kind of the Pediapal arriving on the scene, I do think that yes, it takes a village to raise a child, but also I think it takes a village to raise an indie app developer at some point. So I had a lot of help from a lot of people who really genuinely care about me. Charlie Chapman: What was sort of the thesis of V1 of Pediapal? So you're using Apple Notes, but Apple HealthKit exists to theoretically store health data. Obviously, like you mentioned, you were kind of looking for a problem to solve and you found one in trying to store your child's health data, but what led to let's build an app and then what was the idea behind the app in terms of how is this different than other options that are out there? Adrian Eves: So what led to "Let's Build an App" was I finally got really excited that I had a problem that I could translate into an app, which is weird because when you have a problem, you're like, "Oh man, that's a problem." But I was like ... Have you ever seen the movie Enchanted with Amy Adams? She's like, "I'm angry that she goes to ... I'm angry." She's really excited to experience anger. And so I felt like that. I was excited to experience the problem that I could develop into an app. And so no questions asked, I just jumped into it. And I kind of realized during it that healthcare exists for individual users, but we don't really have a health kit for kids. Charlie Chapman: Yes. Adrian Eves: And so one of the things that I will be putting in Pediapal at some point in the hopefully, not so distant future is as parents' kids get older, they're going to get their own phones. I would like for Pediapal to be able to export their records so that way they can import it into HealthKit and have a complete story of their health. I don't look at it. I don't know anyone's health, whatever. I don't get sent anything. So I hope that whatever people log at that point, they'd be satisfied with. And it would help, especially with medical stuff, with doctors, whatever, so that way, folks can enjoy happy, long, joyful lives. Charlie Chapman: Yeah. And like you mentioned, so you don't store anything because like you were talking about earlier, you're using CloudKit for all of your data. So that means you have literally no access to any of this data. It's all in there. Adrian Eves: Correct. It's all encrypted. Charlie Chapman: And so I assume that was part of it. So whenever you were getting close to the launch, how were you sort of pitching it? I mean, your original pitch is, it's sort of the health hub for your children's lives or your family's life. Was that kind of the main pitch? Adrian Eves: That was because also at the same time, that was my first foray into being a serious indie developer. And so, I'm going to be completely honest, I didn't really have any know how on how to market or what to market. I just thought that if I willed my problems hard enough that people would get it. And that's what I tried doing. And I mean, it had some mixed results, but I don't want to will problems that hard anymore. Charlie Chapman: So I guess to that point then, did you try to do a big splashy launch? Was there something like that or did you just hit publish and then now, it's out there and then you start trying to market it? Adrian Eves: So I was always set on March 3rd. I just really wanted that to be the day and I was really pushing it and a lot of my friends- Charlie Chapman: For no reason at all or just because you looked at the calendar and you're like, this would work well? Adrian Eves: I think to me, I feel like if I had a sliding deadline, there would be a risk of not doing it, especially because I hadn't shipped anything at that point. Charlie Chapman: Yes. Adrian Eves: So that to me was better to have something than nothing at all. And I also, for 50% of the app developed it kind of secretly because I wanted the instant gratification, especially telling you and our friend group being like, "Duh, they're making an app," whatever. But sometimes that instant gratification, you get what you kind of need in that moment and you're like, well, I don't really- Charlie Chapman: Sometimes ... Yeah, there's two ways you can think about pre-announcing a thing. For some people, it creates this maniacal sense of deadline in your head because you're like, "Well, I have to get it out there," like I said, and it's really embarrassing. And so it forces you to kind of do it, but sometimes you get all of the endorphin rush by announcing it because you've announced it and then you're just kind of like, "Oh, well, I got that thing." And then your motivation just dries up. I don't know if there's a good theory for how to determine which one of those people you are or maybe different people are in different situations. But it is kind of a weird trend. I'm definitely in the former cap where if I announce something, it really lights a fire under my butt to be like, I intellectually know nobody else cares about what I've said, but in my head I'm like, "I said it. I have to do that now." And so it helps usually, but yeah, I can go either way. Adrian Eves: Yeah, that's kind of where I was going for, and a lot of people were really nice to me. Chris Lindsay was like, "It's okay if you don't make the March 3rd deadline." He could see I was getting stressed out about it and he was being a very good friend to me. But I was like, no, I was like, Adrian Eves is going to hit all the things that he says he's going to do even though in the past year isn't always. But I hit it and for better or for worse, I had some lead up to it. I was like, "Oh, something's coming." And basically, I was pitching it in a way as if I had an exciting, expecting audience looking at me all the time, which now looking back, I'm kind of like, "Ha-ha," but it was fun to get caught up in that part at least. Charlie Chapman: Yeah. Adrian Eves: It was fun. The little theatrics of it can be pretty fun. Charlie Chapman: And by theatrics, you mean on your personal social- Adrian Eves: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, kind of like, "Oh, Pediapal is coming. Here's a feature spotlight that it's going to have." And it's like household sharing, "Oh, tell me, friend." Charlie Chapman: So you got it by March 3rd. What was the feeling of releasing it then? Adrian Eves: It was pretty nice to have it done. I wanted to make sure I had a week ahead of time before review just because I felt like I was going to feel a little crushed if it didn't get out on time. And so luckily that went well- Charlie Chapman: Because it got rejected or something. Adrian Eves: Yeah. I would've been like ... but it happened and I felt really excited. But I think an important thing for creators to know, and this is a lesson I've learned time and time again, and I think I finally get it. We'll see. A lot of us think that we're going to ship something and then, that's going to be it and that's going to sustain us. And the reality of it is whether it's sustained you financially or not, that's one thing, but in your passions and in your mind and even in your living, it's going to last for a moment and however long that moment is, depends. But the launch of Pediapal was an exciting moment for sure, but it doesn't last forever. It's a moment, it's a cool moment, but then it's like, "Okay, what now?" Charlie Chapman: Yeah. Adrian Eves: And so, I truly wasn't prepared to contend with the what now. And so I kind of ideated a couple of things, fixed a few bugs that I saw and just kind of built up a couple of things here and there over the course of ... from March to June. Charlie Chapman: Was there a big uptick? Adrian Eves: The big uptick happened in September. Charlie Chapman: Okay. So when you initially launched it, it wasn't like money starts rolling in, this is a new business. Okay. Adrian Eves: Definitely not that. And that's okay. That's kind of how the story is supposed to start. Charlie Chapman: There's different goals people have with releasing an app. I feel like for you, there's an element of you wanted to build a financial safety net to a degree. There's also this element of you want to have this sort of portfolio piece, a piece of yourself that's out there, amused to add features to and to work on over time, right? Adrian Eves: Yeah. And so the thing is, and I'll be completely honest, I didn't know what Pediapal was trying to be in terms of that question you just asked. I didn't have it pegged to a specific thing like, "You're going to be a moneymaker. This is my portfolio piece." I didn't think that far enough ahead. And so, I just kind of was okay with it being whatever it unfolded as. And I'm still figuring out what it's unfolding as. And it's definitely a journey, but it's definitely a journey worth taking. And you learn ... I think whatever you ship at the end of the day, you get something from it regardless. You may get money from a successful app or you might learn something really valuable that helps your next app. Charlie Chapman: You said that there was an uptick in September? Adrian Eves: Yes, because- Charlie Chapman: What's the story there? Adrian Eves: The story, two words, Liquid Glass. Charlie Chapman: Okay. Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. So Pediapal, that was just last year? Adrian Eves: Yeah. Charlie Chapman: I thought it was longer ago than that. Adrian Eves: It was its first birthday. Charlie Chapman: Okay. Wow. Okay. So this was last year. So you released it in, you said March 3rd? Adrian Eves: March of 2025. Charlie Chapman: And then WWDC happens. So you have the app now, you get to go to your first DubDub with an Indie app, which is, I feel like a different way to experience- Adrian Eves: It was so cool. I recommend it. That was a big goal for me. Charlie Chapman: Because there's something about having ... I keep calling it a muse, but it really is. If you're a developer who works at a company, you get to care about your craft and there's lots of stuff you get to do within your company that's very fun. But there's something about this little thing on the side that you 100% control. And when you're watching WWDC sessions and something looks fun, you can just be like, "I can do that. I can do that here. I don't need anybody's permission and I can just go with it." And it's a really different way of experiencing the big tranche of new technologies that we get to play with every year. Adrian Eves: Yeah, that was really cool. And I think that's what happened. Honestly, I think when they announced Liquid Glass, I was overwhelmed with potential. And also foundation models was super cool because up until then, I'd really wanted to do some kind of feature where you could have it summarize your last couple of weeks of recordings and have it say something to the doctor, because my partner, whenever I would go to the pediatrician, she would write a really nice paragraph. Because she's a veterinarian, so I had a decent medical background, and I would just read it off like a script. I'd be like, "This thing happened in OES, we're feeling this, this very specific thing that I can barely pronounce happened." And so foundation models became the key to give everyone a Pocket Mary, which is how I pitched it. But then, I got to contend with the design that I had and I was frustrated at first because I went to the Code Crawl after CommunityKit and I was like, "Okay, time to redesign this. Time to slap the Glass on." I got really frustrated because I looked at my app and I was like, "I don't know what to do with it in the state it's in." I initially saw the Liquid Glass as just a look ... but then I had some friends who were very grateful for their assistance over the course of the week. And I realized Liquid Glass is not just a look, it's a new system, which I mean, people are probably like, "Duh, Adrian, it's a system redesign." Okay, and you may be right, but I kind of learned that it has its own set of rules and what works and doesn't work. And once I kind of came to grips with that, I also kind of learned some techniques on how to learn what my users really want and how to make things a little better to use. And so those dovetailed really nicely into a redesign that I worked really hard on. I basically pretty much rebuilt the app from scratch. I would say that in the year of 2025, I built Pediapal twice, with the exception of what we stopped and happy with, because I'm never going to touch that- Charlie Chapman: The data layer stayed the same, but you rebuilt the whole UI. Adrian Eves: Yeah. Everything visually changed and I'm really, really happy that it did. I got to go to a workshop in New York with Apple for ... to learn how to do the Liquid Glass. That was so invaluable. I got to really learn and think about how a Swift UI expert really approaches stuff. The expert in question was Kurt, who was just wonderful. And I feel like, yes, it helped me make my app look really, really good while I was there because I got to ask a lot of important questions like, "Is this necessary? What does this serve? How does this better?" But the biggest takeaway was also things I could use in the future, especially things that Kurt taught me, little things here and there, like throw this into a sample project. The biggest advice he gave me was, if you feel you're frighting the framework, there's probably a better way to do it. And that's something I take super seriously now. Also, he called me out for my aggressive use of the on change modifier and which I should have been called out for. Charlie Chapman: Feels like a very Apple thing to say, right? I think there are apps that benefit from feeling like the system and feeling almost like their app made by Apple kind of. Speaking personally, it can sometimes be selfish when the idea is like, don't fight the system, just make everything look exactly like everybody else's app. That can get aggravating too. Adrian Eves: No, that's fair. And especially for this app, I wanted to feel like the app that folks use for health and stuff. And so, it was good advice, and I think currently that too- Charlie Chapman: You wanted to feel very trustworthy and feel native to the system. Adrian Eves: Yeah. Charlie Chapman: Yeah. Adrian Eves: It was really fun and I really loved it. And then, I came for the release and I thought for sure, I'd be instantly featured. I was like, yes, I put a Liquid Glass in my app. Spoiler alert, so did everyone else. And I honestly got very crushed that it didn't get featured. Charlie Chapman: And by featured, you can win iOS 26th- Adrian Eves: Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think I had somehow snowballed a bunch of momentum in my head like, "Oh man, it's going to happen. It's going to happen." And then, it didn't happen and I felt crushed or whatever. And I think that's okay. That's part of your journey. Charlie Chapman: The yearly iOS release cycle, Apple makes a bunch of features about apps that use X, Y, Z framework well, essentially. And if you can get on one of those lists, it can be really nice in terms of lots more eyeballs seeing your app. And if you convert well, lots more sales in your app. But it comes with this unfortunate side effect, which is, you have absolutely zero real control over what Apple does. So you can throw lots of fishing lines out there. You can give them all the things that you think App Store Editorial wants, like implementing liquid design. Talking to lots of people, going to the sessions, getting as much face time as you can with people on those teams. But at the end of the day, who knows what their decision process is, and that can be really disheartening when you do all that work and then, you don't get that payoff. Adrian Eves: No, I agree. And I think one thing I learned, the valuable takeaway was that there are things that you can control, that you should try to control, especially with your app, but it started to get to a point where I was doing the work on the app for the redesign for the wrong reasons. There were parts, especially at the very beginning of the redesign process. I really loved it and I felt like I was learning stuff and I felt like I was just getting to experiment with all I really loved. But as I got super feature hungry, whatever, that's where the fall off came. That's where the ... I keep saying get crushed. I don't want to say hurt. It's not like they slided me. It's not that they were like, "Man, that guy sucks." Charlie Chapman: No, but it's emotionally hurtful. It's not that somebody is making a bad choice, but it still hurts, when- Adrian Eves: I put all my eggs in the basket. Charlie Chapman: Yeah, exactly. Adrian Eves: But I'm okay with the result. I think I'm better for it. I think experiencing that was kind of what I was meant to experience at this point in my life because two things happened. Number one, I learned do things because you love them. And then also, Paul encouraged me to get into something he calls spite driven development and I made a second app out of it. Charlie Chapman: Well, okay. And I want to get into that, but first, you said in September that there was a jump. So you didn't get a feature. Adrian Eves: Yes. Charlie Chapman: So what's the story there? Where did the jump come from? Is it just from- Adrian Eves: The so the jump came from ... And that's a really good question to ask because I wasn't even looking at that. I couldn't been more appreciative of that. The redesign came out and I got to be on the news about it, which was really cool. Charlie Chapman: The TV news? Adrian Eves: Yeah, I was on TV news. I think I was wearing this shirt. And I said ... and I'll never forget it. I said awesome sauce on it. I was like, "We never say that word." So I was like, "What is happening?" But it was cool, I got to explain it for parents and I got to give viewers an overview of, this is what iOS 26 looks like. If you woke up this morning and your iPhone feels different, here's why. And then, I realized after all this process, my target users are not people who are just super eager to update their iPhone and get Liquid Glass. Charlie Chapman: Exactly. Adrian Eves: They're the people who go, "Can you fix my printer for me, Charlie?" Charlie Chapman: Yes, exactly. You're solving ... You're creating a digital solution to a problem that everybody has, and it doesn't need to be targeted at the people who read nine to five Mac and are looking at the App Store pages every day to see what new apps are out there. This is a very different user base probably. Adrian Eves: And so, it was very interesting. It's crazy because if you think about it from then until September, that's six months where I didn't understand my core audience. Charlie Chapman: How did you end up on the news? Adrian Eves: Well, so a couple of my friends knew that I was working on the app and they passed my information along and they were like, "Hey, do you want to appear on the news?" And I was like, "Do I want to appear on the news? Yeah, that sounds cool." I was like, "My mom will finally watch." Charlie Chapman: There is something about being on traditional media that ... At RevenueCat, we like to do competitions where we put things on billboards. And for most apps, it's not like a billboard, it's actually a good way to do advertising, but man, is it validating seeing your work, your artwork on this giant physical thing. Adrian Eves: No, I love seeing people experience it. I love people seeing the ... I like seeing the validation of others get. It's really cool. Charlie Chapman: Yeah. That actually moved the needle. So you started seeing jump in downloads after the news broadcast. Adrian Eves: Yes. And so that was really cool. And then, it got me thinking on ways to market ... I'm still great at marketing, but me not being good at marketing is not the end of that story. It's just kind of a, I'm not good at it now, but I can see ways in which I can try to be good at it. Charlie Chapman: You said you learned spite-driven development and that led you to making a second app. So what's the story there? Adrian Eves: I don't know who the Spite was directed at, because it wasn't directed at Apple, it wasn't directed inwardly. I think it was kind of like when musicians try a different thing and they're like, "Okay, well, I'm going to try the electric guitar when I've played a music guitar my entire career." And I identified another problem that I had, and it's a problem I've had since I was nine years old and it's migraines. And I was like, "I'm going to solve a really personal problem and I think I'm going to ship an app that has a direct connection to the person who's using it." But the thing is, I learned so much with the redesign, I wanted to make an app that was really pretty. And so, the longest thing I spent time on with my second app was a gently animated background. It took me a while. I had plenty of layovers and stuff to crack it, but I did. And one of my friends issued a challenge and they said ... they bet that I couldn't release my app in a month. And the stakes were real high. Let me tell you, it was ice cream. Loser had to buy the winner ice cream. And I made the app in the time period. It ended up being a really, really helpful tool for me in my migraines. So I've been dealing with migraines since I was nine years old and it's a very personal problem, one that I've had in my back pocket and I started making it on a train and during flights. I get my best ideas when I go to a ServerSide.swift. It's weird. Charlie Chapman: That's the conference in the UK. Adrian Eves: Yeah. I agree to help ... I'm one of the helpers in that, the team is so great to work for. But anyways, my friend made me a bet that I couldn't finish the app in under a month and I took his bet and the stakes were really high, let me tell you. The winner had to receive ice cream from the loser. Charlie Chapman: Rough. Rough. Adrian Eves: So I finished the app in under a month, but it was really easy to do because I wanted to make something incredibly low effort. I mentioned that I have ADHD and I wanted to make a migraine app that when I'm in the middle of vision problems and just searing pain, that it wasn't asking me like a million questions and my bank account and my social security and everything. Not that it ever has. That's a joke. And so I did that. And so the core feature really behind Auralog is it has a giant button when you're logging. You can do save now, log later. It'll capture the weather data and any relevant health data in that moment and it'll be like, cool. And you can go about your day and rest and in eight hours it will notify you like, "Would you like to add any more details about triggers and stuff?" And at that point, you're usually feeling better. Some of them run pretty long, but I think it's enough of a spot where you can update it. And so, that's been going very well. It was pretty in all Liquid Glass and I finished it under a month and I shipped it really quietly. I actually shadow dropped it. Charlie Chapman: Yeah. This one kind of just popped up out of nowhere. I don't even feel like you were talking about it with our friend group. Adrian Eves: I think it's part of my thing where I was worried about the instant gratification again. Charlie Chapman: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Adrian Eves: And so, I had to be careful. And so, I think that's working well for me. It came out quickly. And one thing ... I have been really surprised with how well it's doing on the App Store, it's actually generating a pretty decent amount of money. Is it livable right now? No, but it's my first project that's continuing to grow really well. Charlie Chapman: Why do you think that is? Adrian Eves: I think that it's easy to sell something like an app for migraines because it's very search driven. People who have migraines look for stuff, and then folks just want to take care of their migraines and not have them. It's a very universal problem. Whereas Pediapal, I think one of the things that is difficult for especially marketing towards folks like you and me who are very techie, there's a second degree. It's I am a user using on behalf of my child, whereas Auralog is really easy. It plugs into the systems of health kit and stuff and you use it really quickly and that's it. It has a few useful app intents and it does the job that it's clearly assigned to do. And I think because Pediapal was made with a bunch of little tasks that it does, focusing on just one initially let me design it really, really, really thoroughly and really finally. And I think that benefited me in the long run. Charlie Chapman: So you said it's search driven. Is a lot of that coming from specific keywords that you intentionally put in there, or have you done the research to sort of figure that out? Adrian Eves: Yes. I've done some. Adam Lichtel helped me with my keywords. We hung out. He's a good friend too. We went to DEVWorld together and he gave me some advice and keywords and stuff and it's been doing really well. And so they're not thoughts that I would've had organically, so thanks, Adam. And also, have you heard that phrase? It's give a man a fish, feed him for a day, teach a man to fish, feed him forever. Charlie Chapman: No. I'm just kidding. Yes. Adrian Eves: I was going to say, I asked ... I need to butcher that. Charlie Chapman: Yeah, the most common English idiom you can think of. Adrian Eves: Well, I think Adam definitely taught me how to fish when we hung out. And I'm really appreciative. I love when I ask for help and people aren't just like, "Let me do it for you," and they teach me how to do it meaningfully. That's just such a valuable thing. Charlie Chapman: So have you continued pushing on the sort of ASO then for Auralog? Adrian Eves: Yes, that's my main driver. Actually, I've been doing that and Apple search ads have been working remarkably well for it. Charlie Chapman: Really? Okay. So with Apple search ads, that's something I've never really been able to crack, but I think for me at least, the issue has been, that my average lifetime value for customers I earn through ads isn't high enough to offset the cost of the ads. So I end up paying more for people then, than they ever bring in. How have you dealt with that? Adrian Eves: Adam and I talked a little bit about doing ads and some experiments with it, and we did the experiments that we talked about and it just started working really well and the conversion rate is doing really well. And I think migraine is such a high search volume term that the related terms do really, really, really well. And it also helps with the visibility in the App Store. And I think I kind of just happened to catch lightning in a bottle. I wish I could say, "Oh yes, I calculated everything and was so good at it," but I think I got lucky. Charlie Chapman: Yeah, I guess that makes sense. Your conversion rate, there's thousands of white noise apps, which is what my app is sort of competing with that are completely free and they're filled with ads or whatever, but they're totally free. And so the conversion rate for my app, which I also have the free tier, it's pretty generous, is probably lower than maybe what you're getting. I guess that is a quick question. What is the business model for ... I didn't ask you for either of these apps. What is the business model for both of these apps? Adrian Eves: So they're both freemium apps. They both have a limited set of free features and you can pay for the ultimate thorough use cases. Things are behind the paywall. That's really it. Charlie Chapman: And what do you have behind the paywall on Auralog? Because it's a pretty limited ... like you said, it's intentionally kind of a limited set of features. So what is it that people are actually paying for versus free? Adrian Eves: So the biggest thing that people pay for, for Auralog is all the tools related to their history, their migraine history. And that's kind of the ability to look at all of them and that you've ever had and down to the nitty-gritty weather detail. A free user, what they can do with it is they can log their migraines and they can see the most three common triggers and they see basically a heat map of all the ones that they've had recently. They don't have that granular data. Charlie Chapman: That makes sense. So you can capture everything just fine and you can see a set of all that information, but if you want the more granular data and data that you're pulling in, like the notes that they leave, I'm assuming they can see for free? Adrian Eves: Yes. Charlie Chapman: Okay. Yeah. So it's all the stuff that you're kind of pulling in and adding in. That makes sense. And I imagine that's very valuable information for somebody experiencing these, especially where I've heard this from people I know is there's some treatments now for extreme migraines and tracking all of this and seeing what's working, what's not working is incredibly important. And it's notoriously hard to track while you're experiencing one, you're not in a space where you can really do that work. Adrian Eves: No, that's very true. And I think that's kind of the problem it aims to solve because I think a lot of apps help you track migraines. The whole point of this one is to assist you and not be annoying when you need it. Charlie Chapman: Yeah. It's made by somebody who has firsthand experience being in that space, right? Adrian Eves: Yeah. That's right. Because one time I actually called you when I had one of my weirdest ones. Charlie Chapman: Yeah. Yeah. I should say a lot of my understanding of this field is from knowing you. And people listening who don't know people who have severe migraines like this, probably have the same mentality I had, which is like, I think of a migraine as it's a really, really bad headache. But sometimes with you, it doesn't even seem like it's a headache. It's more like ... Well, the name implies that you get like the aura is like a ring in your vision, right? Adrian Eves: Yeah. So the app icon, which Matthew Skiles so lovingly designed, is made to look like a common aura that people see. I actually don't see that one. Every now and then I'll see what looks like a little golden fairy streak across my vision. It sounds so weird to say out loud. Charlie Chapman: It always sounds so ... calling it an aura too makes it sound pleasant. Adrian Eves: It's so weird though. But the things that I experience at the onset of a migraine vary. Sometimes I see a little golden dot. Sometimes themes look a little smudged. Sometimes I go totally blind and then, sometimes I lose feeling in my mouth and my hands. And then, there's one that's happened only a handful of times, where I can understand what people are saying to me, but I cannot speak English. I cannot make my mouth formulate any sound or words. Charlie Chapman: Well, sometimes your accent changes. Adrian Eves: Yes. Yes. And that happens too. Charlie Chapman: Yeah. It's a really bizarre ... Again, it's like to me, a migraine was a bad headache and it's so much ... not just even more than that, but different ... It's a completely different thing than that. And it seems like everybody experiences it very differently, but for many people, I imagine ... Well, it is debilitating by kind of nature. So designing software as somebody who understands these things. And I imagine you're part of communities ... you know more people than the average person who are going through these as well. Adrian Eves: I actually only know people, kind of like in my day-to-day life that I talk to, I'm trying to embark some on TikTok or whatever. So I've learned a lot through how people deal with things, but I don't have a huge migraine community. Charlie Chapman: Actually, that's an interesting point because that feels like sort of search traffic, finding people as they're asking for solutions, that's one way. But then the other way would be finding those communities. I had a recent episode with Aja Beckett talking about the GLP-1 medication kind of tracking apps, and a big part of her success was finding those communities and engaging with those communities and building it for them. That feels like that could be another mechanism, but it sounds like you're not necessarily in those communities the same way. Adrian Eves: No, but I'm looking to be. And that's the thing, I'm not going to pretend that I have all the answers. I'm like, yes, I'm just so successful over here. I'm always looking for a way to do it better. And I think now I'm confident enough in what I can make that I do want to extend to communities. And then I do think that for the next thing that I make, I will probably do a build in public or I will share it with folks who want to use it. And actually do some really, really heavy beta testing before I do an actual launch. I'm trying to ... It's nice. It's like playing different instruments. You kind of get to sample how each of them sound and feel and find which ones you like best. Charlie Chapman: Yeah, that's awesome. So yeah, so that app is only, what, like four months old? It's pretty recent, right? Adrian Eves: Yeah. It came out in October, I believe. Charlie Chapman: October. Okay. So hopefully a long road ahead for it. It seems like that one definitely has some traction, but you- Adrian Eves: It's my strongest one. Charlie Chapman: That's got to be a good feeling too, although sometimes maybe disheartening where it's like Pediapal was the app that you probably put a lot more of your ... whole heart and soul into and spent a lot of time and stressed more about it. And this one, because you were like, let's just make it fast. You don't think about the fact that you're actually piggybacking off of all that work you did with Pediapal but it actually is a result of all the work you did with Pediapal, but it feels like, "Oh, I just threw this one out there." And then, it gains traction and it's almost like aggravating. Adrian Eves: I wouldn't say I'm aggravated because it's still alive and doing decently well. Charlie Chapman: Yeah. Yeah. Adrian Eves: And I have the next update planned ... Pediapal opened some interesting doors for me. I'm getting invited to these health conferences for perinatal organizations and whatnot. Charlie Chapman: Interesting. Adrian Eves: And so the next update for Pediapal, the next major one is going to be all about babies. Charlie Chapman: That makes sense. And that's a thing people are tracking me a lot of things, at least we were, when ours were babies. Adrian Eves: It makes so much sense to me that ... and I can't believe I didn't see it at first, going doubling down, starting it literally infancy because you can grow with that whole history tool. Charlie Chapman: Yes, and imagine that TAM is significantly bigger, although it's a lot more competitive. Adrian Eves: And I think I was a little hesitant to jump into that first because I was like, I don't want to really jump into something that's really oversaturated. I kind of want to hit a slightly different market, but now I'm being asked to join that. And so that to me seems like a good sign. Charlie Chapman: Yeah, for sure. That's really cool. One thing I also want to talk about in relation to all this work that you did, throughout this whole conversation, it has come up over and over again that you were at XYZ conference and you worked with XYZ person who helped you do XYZ. Your connection with the community, I feel like is a major part of your journey as a developer and as an indie. And that has extended from ... like we talked about at the beginning, you were doing iOS Dev Happy Hour, but last year at WWDC, you really pushed that much more forward with CommunityKit, which is essentially a side conference along with WWDC. Maybe I'll let you explain it better than me. Adrian Eves: It is basically a supplementary experience for DubDub. And I think CommunityKit came out in such a beautiful way because it's kind of like, my friends and I, we got together and we kind of got to jam together on something cool and CommunityKit was born from that. We were all at Serverside.swift when we came up with the idea and we were like, "Let's just do something. Let's do something during DubDub or whatever." And I think had it been just only one of us at a time, it would be severely different, but I think because all of us really came together and made something special, because CommunityKit is not just my thing. I want to just take a good moment to acknowledge Mikaela and Mitchie and Ben and Chris and Matt and Paul and Tamia and Frank, they're all great and wonderful and fantastic to work with. Had it not been for them, I don't think it would be as special as it is. And I'm really happy because last year was great. We had a lot going on at CommunityKit to supplement the things going on at DubDub. We didn't try to step in and replace it. We were like, "Hey, here's a central spot for you to continue enjoying your DubDub and to come and go as you please and to have meetups with people who are interested in the things that you are and a space for indie developers to come show off what they've done." And it was really special. I'm just really grateful we get to come back again. Also, thanks RevenueCat for sponsoring us last year and this year. Charlie Chapman: Yes. Yeah. And I've probably set it up this podcast a bunch too, but the sort of post 2020 WWDC experience where Apple shortened everything up to basically just be one day for a much smaller group of people, kind of bummed me out quite a bit. And as somebody who lives in St. Louis, Missouri, we don't have this big indie iOS development scene. Being able to go to a place where everybody is all together and be inspired by lots of people and talk to lots of people, find partners on projects, that's like a big part of the WWDC experience to me. And for the last ... Since they started doing it in person again, you kind of had to do a lot of that work yourself. There was lots of side events. iOS Dev Happy Hour was one of the first, I think, to have a happy hour, but it was like a two-hour kind of experience, also sponsored by RevenueCat. If we listed all the events happening, yeah, sponsored by RevenueCat kind of becomes a running joke because we have our fingers in everything, I feel like. But what CommunityKit did, what was missing from a lot of that to me was if you're a person coming into Cupertino, not exactly this thriving metropolis of walkability, right? Outside of Apple's one event that you have to have a special ticket for anyway, where do you go to do stuff? And you kind of have to dig around the internet. Paul Hudson has a great GitHub repo basically where he was ... or he still does, I think, track all these side events that are going on. But most of those are ticketed. Even if they're free, they can only let so many people in. So there was never just an obvious like, "Let's just go here and I'm going to be surrounded by other iOS nerds." What you did with CommunityKit was you created that space. It was essentially ... It was kind of a conference, but it was like at a hotel, you had a big room and it was just a series of sessions. Some of them were talks, some of them were ... I did a live version of Launched, there was other podcasts, there was trivia, there was games. There was just random stuff happening throughout. But the important thing was if you just go there, you're going to be surrounded by your people. And that felt like that was a big hole that was missing. And I think there was a lot of gratitude for that within the community. Adrian Eves: It was really special. And honestly, the whole community team really put their heart and soul into it. I can speak only really for myself, but this community has given me so much and at some harder points in my life, they've really been there for me. And so I mean it wholeheartedly when I say I love this community with my whole heart and I really want to help foster it and continue to help it be there because I don't know, maybe there will be someone who like starting in their early career that needs friends and community. And I really hope it's there for them in the way that it's been for me because so many people when I got started gave me everything that I have now and it would not be right to be like a dragon and hoard a bunch of gold. I really want to make sure that everything that I have, I get to pay it forward somehow because it just wouldn't feel right otherwise. And CommunityKit, that's the desire I bring to CommunityKit. And I'm just happy that people have found community there. That's literally what's supposed to be the glue between the cracks of everything happening during the week. And I think it went extremely well and I'm very fortunate that it did. Charlie Chapman: And one more Launched related plug for anybody who's thinking about going next year. Actually, you can answer me because I don't know if you're planning on doing this again, but last year during my doldrums year of Launched where I released like three total episodes, one of the few episodes that I released was with Klemens Strasser where we talked about Art of Fauna, which was before he won all of the awards last year. He won an ADA and Abstract Award. He probably got all that because he was on Launched, but I'm not taking credit. Adrian Eves: Yeah. Yeah. Charlie Chapman: No, one of the things we talked about in that episode was how he would go ... because he makes less of these games. He would go to games conferences and a lot of games conferences have these indie showcases where developers can get in this big area and people can walk around and demo their game and then, they get to see live feedback from people playing their games. And I was like, "Man, that should exist for indie iOS apps. That would be so cool." And then I brought that up to you. I don't know if it was before or after you had already started CommunityKit. And you were like, "Yes, we should just do that." And you did it. And it was honestly a completely wild experience to be in this room where there was tables all around and all these people were streaming in and just going through all these booths with these indie developers and you could demo the app you're working on and get live feedback. It was crazy. It was just the coolest thing. Adrian Eves: I remember it was during CommunityKit a developer we were doing that, because I would be like, "Charlie, let's talk more about this. Call me." And that was so fun to do. And I'm so glad it's coming back this year. And fun note about this year is we're going to have a bit of a ... We're determining whether it's going to be either before or after the main ... we call this the indie fair. We're going to do a small group of the actual indie developers before or after they present their apps so they can meet each other. CommunityKit was such a cool time and I'm just so glad to be coming back. We're just getting started on talking of loosely planning our week. It's really hard to do because at the time of recording this, we don't have all the details about what even is happening at DubDub- Charlie Chapman: We often don't even get all the details until after the keynote sometimes. Last year, a bunch of events were kind of messed up because Apple did that F1 screening and it's like, you never know. This is one of the challenges of organizing anything during WWDC week is everybody is just trying to feel the wins and try to understand what's going to happen, but really nobody ever fully knows. Adrian Eves: No, yeah, it's fun. People are like, "Is it stressful?" And I'm like, "Kind of, but stress entertaining." Charlie Chapman: And this is like a kind of conference that's going along with WWDC, but this year you decided to add even more to your giant pile of work by doing a capital C conference conference. Do you want to give some details on that? Adrian Eves: The idea was I really wanted to do a conference and if this happened, I started thinking about it maybe two or three years ago, but I wanted to be centered around music because I love music, I love playing music, I love listening to music. And so I was like, "Charlie, I want to do a conference about ... centered around music." And you're like, "Oh, that sounds cool. You should do ..." And you're like, "Ah, it could be festival themed." And I was like, what a great idea." Charlie Chapman: Did that come from me? Sweet. Adrian Eves: I don't know if it came from you or not. I just know that you're the first person I didn't stop talking about it to. And so for a while I was like, okay, yes. And each year I was like, "I'm going to do a conference." And just like my other indie apps, where did it go? And so finally, this most recent year at ServerSide.swift, Matt Massicotte was there and I was like, "Oh yeah, I've always thought about doing this conference or whatever, but I don't know when is a good time." And he just goes, "You can just do it. It's never going to be a good time or a bad time." And he's like, "You're just going to run out of time." I was like, "You're right about it." And so I pushed the needle to 11 and went 110%. So it's called Swiftsonic, kind of a play on Panasonic. And basically the idea behind it is it's going to have a lot of heavy imagery and marketing material simulate music festivals. And so, what I've done with the talks- Charlie Chapman: And where is it located and when is it? Adrian Eves: Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's in Nashville Music City, Tennessee. And it's going to be in November. I like designing games and I like playing games a lot. The study of game design is ... I could give a TED Talk on it, but I wanted to make a cool mechanic to the conference because I wanted to have something unique that kind of gives it a bit of identity. And so what I came up with ... So Deep Dish does a thing where they have a couple talks and then a break. And most conferences do talks and then a break. What Swiftsonic is going to do, it's going to do two talks and a break, but the two talks are following the following format. It's going to be an opener speaker and a headliner speaker. The headliner speaker is somebody that has a pretty lengthy speaking career and the opener is someone who is just getting started to or would like to further speaking career or yeah, a first time speaker ideally. And they're going to pair in April and they're going to determine how they want to fill up that combined 90 minutes. They can do standard 45 minute talk, 45 minute talk. I told them that 90 minute space is for them to use as creatively as they desire or not at all. And so I'm looking forward to being surprised to see what people come up with as opener and headliners for each other. And I hope that it helps those folks develop some good mentor-mentee and friendship relationships. I think that there's a lot of potential to happen if I'm not trying to control it. Charlie Chapman: So many of your projects, this has that feeling of a person who understands the mechanics of these types of communities. I'm really excited to see how this all shakes out, but it's definitely a- Adrian Eves: Me too. I'm going to be surprised. Charlie Chapman: That'll be really awesome. Adrian Eves: Also, thanks for RevenueCat for sponsoring Swiftsonic. Charlie Chapman: Let's just keep the RevenueCat ads rolling. Yeah. I'm really excited to see how that all goes. And where can people find information? I don't remember what you've publicly announced about this or what you haven't. What's the deal there? Adrian Eves: So there is a call for members, it's open now. And if you are a first time speaker, I would highly recommend you sign up. I'm looking aggressively for first time speakers or otherwise, folks who want to make more with their speaking career, who have spoken maybe like a handful of times. You can find that on the Swiftsonic website, Swiftsonic, that's swiftsoniccconf.com. So we've got Betsy who is opening the whole conference. I love Betsy. She's such a dear. Charlie Chapman: Former Apple on this Swift UI team or Swift UI evangelist team. Adrian Eves: Yes, she's super. That's why her handle is SuperBetsy. She knows she's super. Paul is closing the conference. And then some of our headliners include Danijela Vrzan, Mikaela Caron, Chris Wu, Matt Heaney Clemons, as I just figured you'd want to know. I haven't formally announced Tim yet, but if you're listening, surprise. Charlie Chapman: Well there you go. Adrian Eves: He doesn't know he's being announced. Charlie Chapman: This is how Clemons finds out. He's coming to Adrian Eves: Nashville. Yeah. And so I try to do headliner speaker announcements on Monday leading up to probably the 1st of April because then I'm going to go through all the CFPs. CFPs are also on the Swiftsonic website. They close on the very last hour of March 31st. So get those in and I'm going to try in the first week of April to go through them and let the folks who are speaking know. But you won't hear anything about the openers just yet because I'm going to pair them with the headliners and give them a chance to work on something. And then, I will probably around DubDub-ish time or probably shortly after, I'll have a festival poster with everyone on it. Charlie Chapman: Fantastic. Adrian Eves: So I'm really excited. I think it's going to be really fun and I hope we all enjoy the vibes for sure. I really want it to feel like kind of like a stadium tour almost. Charlie Chapman: Yeah. It has all the trappings of a very unique event. Adrian Eves: Well, that's a very nice way to put it. Charlie Chapman: All right. So before I let you go, I have to ask you the question that I ask everybody to end this show, which is what's a person or people out there that inspire you in your work that you'd recommend others check out? Adrian Eves: I would honestly say somebody that has inspired me time and time again, especially when I'm not feeling good about myself ... And I know other people have said this before, but Paul Hudson genuinely inspires me. He does really great work. One thing that I don't mention enough is Paul is a genuinely good person and I can go to Paul just about anything that I'm dealing with and he has really good practical advice and he's just there for me in a really meaningful way. And so that inspires me to try to do that for the friends who need me and basically for me to be approachable. So I think at the end of the day, you can be a genius and that's awesome. But if you show up for your friends, especially making them feel like they matter, I think that's a really special thing. And I think that's a really rare thing that I know I'm trying to cultivate in myself and I hope others are too. So if you're listening, Paul, thanks for everything. Charlie Chapman: And he knows a thing or two about Swift and Swift UI as well. Adrian Eves: Yeah. Charlie Chapman: Little known fact about Paul Hudson. Adrian Eves: Yeah, just like a couple of things. Charlie Chapman: Yeah. And you can find everything about him at hackingwithswift.com. Adrian Eves: Yeah. Charlie Chapman: A fine internet establishment often sponsored by RevenueCat. Adrian Eves: RevenueCat. There you are. Charlie Chapman: There it is. All right, cool. So this was super, super fun. I'm glad. I'm glad we finally got to do this. So where can people find you and all of your projects? Adrian Eves: So you can find me @swifteves on pretty much any social media. It's S-W-I-F-T-E-V-E-S. And I mentioned the Swiftsonic website. You can follow me on social media for better or for worse. And yeah, if you ever want to just reach out, say hello, please do. Fair warning in advance that I might actually talk your ear off if you engage me. So heads up. Charlie Chapman: I wouldn't know anything about that. Adrian Eves: No. Yeah. I was about to say, you're kind of like the mayor of playing conversation tone. Charlie Chapman: All right. Well, at risk of continuing that reputation, I'll go ahead and wrap us up. So thank you all for listening. Launched is a part, as we've mentioned, of the RevenueCat Podcast family. If you want to learn more about the growth side of mobile app businesses, you should check out Sub Club, which is a podcast hosted by my good friend and colleague, David Barnard. And of course, go to revenuecat.com to learn more about the easiest way to grow and monetize your mobile app business. For more launched, go to launchedfm.com, and we're pretty much on all the social media platforms at Launched FM. And I'll see you all in two weeks. Bye. Thank you so much for listening. You can find more Launched at launchedfm.com, and you can find me on pretty much all the social medias. I'm @_chuckyc on Twitter or Charlie M. Chapman pretty much everywhere else. And of course, huge thanks to RevenueCat for making this episode and all future episodes of Launched possible. I'll see you all again in two weeks.