54: Sofa - Shawn Hickman

Transcript

Autogenerated by MacWhisper

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Welcome to Launched. I'm Charlie Chapman, and today I'm excited to bring you the developer

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behind the downtime organizer, Sofa, Sean Hickman.

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Sean, welcome to the show.

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Thank you for having me, Charlie.

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Very happy to be here.

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Very honored to be here, actually.

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Oh, wow.

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Thank you.

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Yeah.

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It's kind of funny.

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Normally, you know, this is an opportunity to see somebody for the first time or maybe

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I've seen their face on Twitter or something like that.

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But because of the stuff you do on YouTube that we'll get to later, I feel like I'm familiar

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with your office layout.

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Like I know where you're at and positioned to your space in a way that I don't normally

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already have sort of pre-baked in my mind.

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- Yeah, I'm always, I like ran out the office a little bit.

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I feel like I need a plant in the back somewhere.

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People on YouTube have plants,

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and every time I see one I go,

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oh, that's a good looking plant, it's nice.

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- And you need two contrasting like LED lights,

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like a pink and a blue or a green and an orange

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or something, right?

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- That's how you know you're like a tech YouTuber.

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- Yeah, that's true.

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- Right, you have some kind of RGB light,

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that kind of stuff, 100%.

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- Really shallow depth of field.

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- Yeah, blur out the background.

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You don't even wanna see the background at all, just blur.

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- The perfect podcast content is when you talk about stuff

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that nobody listening can see.

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- Yeah.

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- Since you can see it, I will point out here,

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I've got a couple green plants here,

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literally got those for Christmas,

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took them out of the box and put them there

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so that I don't have a pile of boxes in our house.

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You know how you do with Christmas stuff.

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And that's the extent of it.

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So not super organized over here yet,

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but there is some green showing.

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Your plant game is way better than mine.

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- Well, they exist, so I guess I have that.

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- So, props to you, yeah.

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- All right, well, before we get into Sofa

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and your YouTube channel eventually

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and all the stuff you do,

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I wanna give everyone an introduction to who you are,

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other than the lack of your plant background.

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So, the three questions I always ask everybody

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to kick things off here is, where are you from?

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Do you have a formal education related to what you do?

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and then we can talk about your career leading up to SOFA.

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- Sure, so I am from suburbs outside of Philly,

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specifically a township called Delco or Delaware County.

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That's why my voice sounds like this,

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which, you know, that'll probably come up.

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It comes up a lot with people who are not from the area

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and even from the area.

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- Yeah, I wanna interject,

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'cause you said this before we started recording.

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You said, "I'm from a specific suburb,"

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and that's where the accent comes from.

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So this is like, it's not a Philly thing.

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It's a specific area, or well, outside of Philadelphia?

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- Yeah, so from what I understand,

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at some point there was like a large migration

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of people from South Philly into the suburbs,

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and a lot of them made up what is now Delaware County.

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- Oh.

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- And you say, "Oh, Delaware County, it's in Delaware."

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and you go, no, it's in Pennsylvania.

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So, yeah.

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And it's called Delco for short,

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and it's actually been made fun of on SNL and stuff.

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It's kind of made its way into pop culture a little bit.

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- Interesting.

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- Yeah, but we're oddly known for the way we pronounce words

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and stuff like that, so, yeah.

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- You're holding on to the regional accent.

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I feel like most of those are waning away in America.

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- I'm representing Delco today, yeah, 100%.

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Yeah, yeah, there you go.

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Okay, so Delco.

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And then the next thing would be like formal education.

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- Yeah, so formal education.

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So I went to college for graphic design.

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So I'm professionally a designer.

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And that was back in 2007

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when I graduated graphic design.

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And that was like advertising focused.

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You know, people would say,

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"Oh, what do you do with graphic design?"

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And I would always be like,

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"Oh, I make like CD covers," right?

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Which is, you know, hilarious now.

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When I graduated, that's the year that the iPhone came out,

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the first iPhone, and I was like,

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oh, like, I wanna do that.

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But I had no idea what that even was.

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I just wanted to do it.

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- You wanted to make CoverFlow images, right?

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(laughing)

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- Yeah, I wanna make all the album artwork for CoverFlow,

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yeah, you know, formerly trained as a graphic designer

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and then over time got into software, UX, UI,

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all that kind of stuff,

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and you know, eventually writing, writing apps.

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Yeah, so after, so career leading up to this,

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so school, I did an internship at the end of,

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like towards the end of my schooling,

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and it was with like an advertising thing,

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we were making, they made like credit card mailers.

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- Ooh, that sounds exciting and fulfilling.

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- And I remember just feeling so much regret,

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I was like, what did I choose for my career?

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Like, is this what I'm going to be doing forever?

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Like, I was just like, I can't do this.

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My first, my first job out of college or actually internship was

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an insurance claims processing.

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So, well, there you go.

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Similar level of excitement and fulfillment.

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I'm surprised you're not still doing it.

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Isn't it so much fun?

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Yeah.

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Well, you know, you can only handle so much of the heat, right?

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Uh, it's, it's, it's a really intense area, you know?

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Yeah.

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If you can't, if you can't handle the game, you got to get out, you

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know, that's what it is.

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Yeah.

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Right.

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Yeah.

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(laughing)

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Like I said, like the, you know,

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the iPhone was announced towards the end.

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So then I started trying to get mobile design jobs.

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I was like, oh, I can, I'll do mobile design.

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But everywhere would say, well, you need like four

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to five years of experience designing for mobile.

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And then I would say, well, the iPhone just came out.

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Like, how is that even possible?

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Like, how would anyone have that experience?

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Unless you were designing for like Blackberry or something.

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- Yeah, Windows Mobile, you weren't all over that.

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- Ah, yeah, that's right.

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- 'Cause it had like the start menu

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at the bottom and everything.

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- Yeah, yeah. - Like that, yeah.

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I did have a Palm Trio back in the day too.

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So, which I liked quite a bit.

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And now I work as a design manager

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at a design firm in Philly called Think Company.

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So, I've been there for the past eight years.

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- Nice, okay.

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And how, like, were you doing indie stuff

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on the side this whole time?

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Or was Sofa kind of your first play in that space?

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Sofa has like a longer story than people probably know.

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So when I was at QVC,

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You should do a podcast about that.

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I should do.

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Do you know anyone I could do that?

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I'll ask around.

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Okay.

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Uh, yeah, I gotta find someone.

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Um, so, uh, at QVC, I met two, two coworkers.

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Uh, one was, uh, uh, they were both developers.

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One was, uh, iOS, one was a web developer.

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Hit it off and we actually, you know, got together and made

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the first version of Sofa.

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This was back in 2015.

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Okay.

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And the very first version was like only movies, like you could only add movies to it.

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And it was very discovery focused.

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So, we would like curate these lists of movies that you could, you know, watch and then like

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you could add them to a list if you want to watch them later.

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Was the whole database, like, did you enter everything in or were you using something like,

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was it the movie database?

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Yeah.

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So, the movie, yeah, the movie database was our, you know, main data source.

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And then we built just like a little CMS and our own little like API layer over that

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to power the like curated list that we put together. So that was 2015. And then, you know,

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life got busy for everybody. I'm still very good friends with both of those guys. But I wanted to

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keep going with it. Like I had more ideas and I was like, "Oh, I think there's something here."

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I said, "All right, well, I'll figure it out. Like I'll learn iOS development and

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build an app, right? Like, how hard could it be? Right? Famous last words. It was very hard.

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And in 2017, I launched like, Sofa 2.0, which was like, completely different app from the original

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and very, very simple. Like, you know, it was like a baby app at first.

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Was it more simple than the 1.0 version?

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Oh, yeah.

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Yeah.

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Oh, interesting. Okay.

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Yeah, it was literally just like, you can make lists and then you can put either movies or TV

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shows into those lists. That's it. Like it was, and it was almost like a to-do list. You could

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like check stuff off. I like reached out to someone in the press to like, "Hey, would you

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like to write a review about this?" And they very kindly said, "Your app's maybe a little too basic

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at this point. Maybe reach out when it's, you know, when it's a little more fleshed out." And

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I was like, "That was a very nice way to say no."

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Yeah.

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Yeah. And ever since 2017, just been iterating on it ever since.

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Wow. So, was the first version, like, let's see, 2017, was it paid up front or did you have

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subscriptions at that point already?

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No. So, subscriptions, I only recently introduced in July of 2021. So, originally, it was just free.

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Because to be honest, I was like, "This is not good enough for anyone to pay for."

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So after a little bit, I actually did change it to a paid app. So it was then $4.99. I think I

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made like a hundred bucks or something over a couple months. What was your aspiration?

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Were you thinking this will eventually be something that I'll make paid before you switch

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it to paid? Yeah.

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Okay. So the idea was I'll build this up to something at some point.

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Yeah. I've always wanted it to be a full-time business and all that stuff. And it's moving

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towards that direction, which is great, but it's I've obviously like I had a very meandering

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journey on the way there. Man, that's fascinating. Okay, so trying to think so this is it's been

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around for a while, but I feel like what you're describing and what I think of as SOFA, or at

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least when it came on my radar, very different thing. So like, I guess just kind of walk us

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through that journey to get up to there, like subscription or like business model changes,

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but also just how you added on to it in terms of finding areas of value from people.

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Yeah. So, first released in 2017, Sofa 2.0 was free. And then I forget when I changed it to a

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paid app when it was $4.99, maybe like a year later or something like that. And at that point,

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I'd add it. You can add like podcasts to it. You can add books to it. So, there was more things

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there. And where was that coming from? Was that like you had sort of a road map in your head or

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these are things you found yourself wanting or were you getting feedback from people and that

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was sort of driving what features you added? Back in December of 2022 I released uh I'm going to be

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jumping all over the place Charlie. Oh yeah. Just FYI. Yeah uh so in uh last December of 2022 I

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I released Sofa 3.4 and I was like, there's features in that version that I

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have been wanting since 2017, right?

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Like you can have shared lists with like your spouse or your friend or something.

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Right.

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And right now it's like, it's a beta feature.

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Uh, cause there's, there's some iOS 16 quirkiness to, uh, iron out there.

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There's that there's shortcut support.

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Like there's, there's a couple of things that I feel like it's at a point where

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it, the foundation is there and now I can really start iterating on like the core product

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in new ways.

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- Oh, interesting. So, it's almost like the sort of vision you have in your head

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is really only recently fully realized and now you're at that point of like,

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how do you build on top of that?

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- Yeah, that's how I feel about it. You know, a lot of stuff is, you know, you go down some

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directions and you're like, "Oh, that didn't work." Feedback from people, I would, you know,

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people, co-workers and stuff who would use it, who were very generous with their time.

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But I remember when I was doing the paid app, it was $4.99, and I was telling my uncle about it.

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He's like, "Oh, that sounds really cool." Like, I was just explaining the app.

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And I literally watched him go to the app store and he's like, "$4.99?" He's like, "I don't pay

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for apps. I was like, bro, are you serious? Oh, I've run into this a lot. You're my uncle.

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What the hell? Yeah. So, um, and I was like, wow, if I can't get my uncle to pay for this, like,

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what shot do I have here? So that's when, um, I actually then made the app free again,

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all over the place. Right. And actually, uh, so in 2020, I, I added themes, like custom themes

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and stuff like that. And I started selling themes individually, thinking like, "Oh, okay,

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like maybe I make a bunch of different themes. They're really, really nice or just like quirky

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in different ways." People will buy them and they'll be like a dollar or two dollars or

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something like that. And that with enough volume, that would be, that would be okay.

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Like the, like filters or something for camera apps.

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I've heard you talk about the, almost like the hesitancy of like charging for stuff. And

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When I look back, I'm like, "Oh, I think I was just scared to do subscription and I should have

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done it." You know? Like, that was the obvious decision that I was just like afraid to do.

00:13:37.760 --> 00:13:42.160

And I was like, "Well, I'll try this other thing first and then, you know, and then I'll change it

00:13:42.160 --> 00:13:50.160

if it doesn't work." So, yeah. And then in 2021, July of 2021, Sofa3.0 came out with the subscription

00:13:50.160 --> 00:13:54.880

to Super Sofa, which is like the pro version. - Which is a fantastic name, by the way.

00:13:54.880 --> 00:13:56.020

- Yeah, thanks man.

00:13:56.020 --> 00:13:58.520

- I feel like it's hard to come up with a,

00:13:58.520 --> 00:14:01.720

like I went through this a lot 'cause I was like,

00:14:01.720 --> 00:14:04.760

I don't wanna just slap pro at the end or plus at the end

00:14:04.760 --> 00:14:06.040

because that's what everybody does.

00:14:06.040 --> 00:14:07.560

But what I realized is like,

00:14:07.560 --> 00:14:09.640

it's really hard to come up with a cutesy name

00:14:09.640 --> 00:14:13.080

that's also very clear and obvious

00:14:13.080 --> 00:14:14.720

that this is a pro version of it.

00:14:14.720 --> 00:14:18.620

But super is almost, it has the same connotation,

00:14:18.620 --> 00:14:20.340

but it works so well with sofa

00:14:20.340 --> 00:14:23.840

that I feel like you kind of pulled it off

00:14:23.840 --> 00:14:27.040

having a sort of cutesy unique name that's also clear.

00:14:27.040 --> 00:14:28.400

- Yeah, well, that's good to hear.

00:14:28.400 --> 00:14:30.920

Sometimes I wonder if like some of it is too cute.

00:14:30.920 --> 00:14:33.180

It's like the first time you go to Starbucks

00:14:33.180 --> 00:14:34.680

and you say, "Oh, can I get a large coffee?"

00:14:34.680 --> 00:14:36.320

And they go, "You want a venti?"

00:14:36.320 --> 00:14:39.320

And you go, "I don't know, is that a large?

00:14:39.320 --> 00:14:40.160

"I'll take that."

00:14:40.160 --> 00:14:42.400

- You just kind of roll your eyes like, "Ugh."

00:14:42.400 --> 00:14:43.440

- Yeah, you're like, you have to like

00:14:43.440 --> 00:14:44.880

know the language, right?

00:14:44.880 --> 00:14:48.440

So yeah, it's like a fine line between that stuff.

00:14:48.440 --> 00:14:49.560

- Yeah, and it is tricky.

00:14:49.560 --> 00:14:52.080

And like, I feel like there's a reason everybody,

00:14:52.080 --> 00:14:55.040

- It's kind of like all the TV subscription apps

00:14:55.040 --> 00:14:56.320

being plus now at the end.

00:14:56.320 --> 00:14:57.600

It's like-- - Everything's plus.

00:14:57.600 --> 00:14:59.820

- It's easy to make fun of it, but also,

00:14:59.820 --> 00:15:03.400

it's a real, like, when you're in the position

00:15:03.400 --> 00:15:05.200

of naming something or marketing something,

00:15:05.200 --> 00:15:08.640

and you go, oh, there's a very, very small number

00:15:08.640 --> 00:15:10.160

of characters thing I can slap on

00:15:10.160 --> 00:15:12.640

that is immediately understood by everybody.

00:15:12.640 --> 00:15:16.320

Like, that's a golden goose that's really hard to replace.

00:15:16.320 --> 00:15:17.760

- 100%, yeah.

00:15:17.760 --> 00:15:21.960

And if I was doing the Super Sofa stuff today, like net new,

00:15:21.960 --> 00:15:23.640

I may call it sofa plus, right?

00:15:23.640 --> 00:15:26.200

Like, you know, just to lean into that more.

00:15:26.200 --> 00:15:27.040

- Yeah.

00:15:27.040 --> 00:15:30.040

- But yeah, super sofa I think is, it's fun.

00:15:30.040 --> 00:15:31.720

- It's fun to say for sure.

00:15:31.720 --> 00:15:34.240

- Yeah, that's the point of the app too.

00:15:34.240 --> 00:15:37.120

Sometimes I think like it's to be fun, right?

00:15:37.120 --> 00:15:38.760

But sometimes I think like, oh, I should come up

00:15:38.760 --> 00:15:41.200

with like an even better version

00:15:41.200 --> 00:15:43.120

that is like super duper sofa.

00:15:43.120 --> 00:15:43.960

- Hmm.

00:15:43.960 --> 00:15:46.000

- You know, but then that just gets like really stupid.

00:15:46.000 --> 00:15:47.600

So I probably won't do that.

00:15:47.600 --> 00:15:49.320

- So you've mentioned a couple of times getting feedback

00:15:49.320 --> 00:15:50.480

from people and like.

00:15:50.480 --> 00:15:51.320

- Yeah.

00:15:51.320 --> 00:15:57.160

at your suite of things that you have now, I feel like, like, I know you have a discord and

00:15:57.160 --> 00:16:02.840

there's a community, a whole community page in your website. And it's kind of like a concept

00:16:02.840 --> 00:16:08.200

that you seem to really be leaning into, but I'm assuming you didn't have that, uh, whenever you

00:16:08.200 --> 00:16:12.760

had an app that was, you know, just one list that you could add to. So like, how did, what was sort

00:16:12.760 --> 00:16:16.760

of the journey to get to where you are now? And why do you have so much stuff around that?

00:16:16.760 --> 00:16:22.120

Dude, community stuff is hard. Like, I don't even know how to explain this, but I'm not like,

00:16:22.120 --> 00:16:29.240

I'm not good at participating in communities. I'm good at lurking in communities.

00:16:29.240 --> 00:16:34.200

Even like on Twitter, or, you know, like I'm on Massadown now, like we all are.

00:16:34.200 --> 00:16:39.800

My natural reaction is to not say anything and not post ever. It's just to like,

00:16:39.800 --> 00:16:44.280

watch other people, right? And just kind of like absorb it. So, it actually takes a lot of

00:16:45.000 --> 00:16:52.280

effort and energy to even write anything on these platforms. But

00:16:52.280 --> 00:17:03.000

there's like things where I've been inspired by certain products that have just done it well,

00:17:03.000 --> 00:17:08.120

and maybe it's just like kinda luck how it happens, but like the App Obsidian,

00:17:08.120 --> 00:17:13.160

like their Discord community is, and even their forums are just wild.

00:17:13.160 --> 00:17:13.720

Yeah.

00:17:13.720 --> 00:17:21.560

So good. Just so much great information. People are just, they just like are obsessed with Obsidian.

00:17:21.560 --> 00:17:24.280

It's definitely one of those cult type projects.

00:17:24.280 --> 00:17:24.600

100%.

00:17:24.600 --> 00:17:25.880

Or Notion is similar.

00:17:25.880 --> 00:17:28.600

Notion, yeah, yeah, for sure.

00:17:28.600 --> 00:17:31.560

I almost said Rome and then I realized I'm just listing all of the...

00:17:31.560 --> 00:17:34.200

The PKM stuff.

00:17:34.200 --> 00:17:36.360

Yeah, yeah. All the, what is that?

00:17:36.360 --> 00:17:38.920

PKM, Personal Knowledge Management.

00:17:38.920 --> 00:17:39.480

Oh, there you go.

00:17:39.480 --> 00:17:42.200

I'm mailing myself as a nerd in that way. Yeah.

00:17:42.920 --> 00:17:46.040

Yeah, so stuff like that. I'm just like, oh, it's great because when you're

00:17:46.040 --> 00:17:51.320

Getting into a product like that yourself, which you're like, oh, is this any good?

00:17:51.320 --> 00:17:58.440

The community is like a feature of it really for sure because you get to learn how other people set stuff up

00:17:58.440 --> 00:18:01.240

You can reach out for help all that kind of stuff. So

00:18:01.240 --> 00:18:04.440

if you think about from um,

00:18:04.440 --> 00:18:10.040

Hey, i'm one person like, you know, like being an indie developer. You kind of need all the help you can get

00:18:10.760 --> 00:18:18.600

And there's a lot of, I think, just mutual benefit to having a closer connection and,

00:18:18.600 --> 00:18:24.680

like, line of communication between yourself and people who either use the product or just fans of

00:18:24.680 --> 00:18:32.360

it for getting feedback, for helping other people. Like, you know, ideally, if things go well, like,

00:18:32.360 --> 00:18:37.640

hey, they can help with, like, support. Because someone asks a question and it's like, well,

00:18:37.640 --> 00:18:41.400

maybe someone else jumps in and answers, right? Like maybe I can't get to it right away or

00:18:41.400 --> 00:18:47.720

something. But also like they have a hand in I think shaping the product at this point

00:18:47.720 --> 00:18:53.320

too because I'm trying to post more as I'm working, which again is very unnatural,

00:18:53.320 --> 00:19:00.040

feels very uncomfortable, but I'm trying to do it more. And it actually is nice because

00:19:00.040 --> 00:19:03.960

stuff I'm working on where it's just like, you know, like you have an idea and you're just kind

00:19:03.960 --> 00:19:07.560

of like riffing on it and then someone points something out and you go, "Oh yeah, that's

00:19:07.560 --> 00:19:11.800

actually a good point. Like I'll fix that, right? I'll do it in real time." And you do it before

00:19:11.800 --> 00:19:17.080

you ship anything and those people have a hand in actually making the product better, which I think,

00:19:17.080 --> 00:19:23.000

again, it's just like a nice little mutual ecosystem if it all goes well.

00:19:23.000 --> 00:19:29.880

Like I'm always so jealous of thinking of indies, I think of like drafts or even like

00:19:29.880 --> 00:19:35.720

Christian Selig with Apollo. Yeah. I feel like most apps that can pull it off. It's like,

00:19:35.720 --> 00:19:44.120

it's sort of like the creative, productive, like, life hacky. That's not the right term. I don't

00:19:44.120 --> 00:19:47.000

know what the right term is. Well, maybe it's the acronym you said a minute ago, but...

00:19:47.000 --> 00:19:48.520

PKM.

00:19:48.520 --> 00:19:49.720

PKM. It's all about the PKM.

00:19:49.720 --> 00:19:51.720

Get in there, man. Get in there.

00:19:51.720 --> 00:19:58.520

But like, it's hard to have it. I feel like it's only certain niches of apps that can kind of have

00:19:58.520 --> 00:20:01.180

have that, I guess Apollo is not that at all, but it's a Reddit app.

00:20:01.180 --> 00:20:03.100

So it makes sense that yeah.

00:20:03.100 --> 00:20:07.280

A network built around communities would also form a good community, but like,

00:20:07.280 --> 00:20:09.700

there's so many benefits if you can pull that off.

00:20:09.700 --> 00:20:10.000

Yeah.

00:20:10.000 --> 00:20:14.720

But I imagine it's also, there's also some trickiness to it, right?

00:20:14.720 --> 00:20:18.960

Like, like, do you find yourself having to do moderation or I guess I don't

00:20:18.960 --> 00:20:20.680

know what size you're dealing with, but.

00:20:20.680 --> 00:20:22.140

Yeah, it's small right now.

00:20:22.140 --> 00:20:25.700

So like the discord server has like, I think less than a hundred people in it.

00:20:25.700 --> 00:20:26.420

Okay.

00:20:26.420 --> 00:20:28.420

Very manageable at this point.

00:20:28.420 --> 00:20:31.160

- Yeah, I'm worried about it too, to be honest with you.

00:20:31.160 --> 00:20:34.560

So I had a, I actually had a, I set up a forum,

00:20:34.560 --> 00:20:38.160

Discourse Forum, and also, can we talk about the names

00:20:38.160 --> 00:20:39.000

of these products?

00:20:39.000 --> 00:20:41.040

Discourse and Discord, like who did this?

00:20:41.040 --> 00:20:43.680

- Mm, yeah, that's a little too close, isn't it?

00:20:43.680 --> 00:20:45.220

- Yeah, very confusing.

00:20:45.220 --> 00:20:49.060

So yeah, Discourse is the forum stuff,

00:20:49.060 --> 00:20:51.920

and I actually had that set up like,

00:20:51.920 --> 00:20:55.520

you would go to like forum.sofahq.com,

00:20:55.520 --> 00:20:57.400

and I ran that for like a year,

00:20:57.400 --> 00:21:00.840

And it was just like too much work.

00:21:00.840 --> 00:21:03.180

I shut it down at the beginning of 2022

00:21:03.180 --> 00:21:05.740

because it was just, I still have a full-time job,

00:21:05.740 --> 00:21:06.720

I'm doing this on the side.

00:21:06.720 --> 00:21:11.240

Like I have to be very picky with where I'm putting my time.

00:21:11.240 --> 00:21:15.620

And it was just taking up too much of my time

00:21:15.620 --> 00:21:17.560

to kind of check and all that stuff.

00:21:17.560 --> 00:21:18.640

And I was paying for it too.

00:21:18.640 --> 00:21:20.920

It was just, you know, it was like a hosted thing.

00:21:20.920 --> 00:21:25.920

- Yeah, I set up a Reddit whenever I first made Dark Noise.

00:21:26.560 --> 00:21:28.200

And actually I think it's still out there

00:21:28.200 --> 00:21:30.840

and there's even a link to it in the app.

00:21:30.840 --> 00:21:32.600

And like every once in a while,

00:21:32.600 --> 00:21:34.160

somebody will post in there.

00:21:34.160 --> 00:21:36.100

And for the longest time,

00:21:36.100 --> 00:21:38.280

I didn't know of a way to get notifications on that.

00:21:38.280 --> 00:21:41.320

And I got out of the habit of checking it because,

00:21:41.320 --> 00:21:44.240

you know, and then I'd go there and there'd be like,

00:21:44.240 --> 00:21:45.920

other people would answer the question,

00:21:45.920 --> 00:21:47.240

but then somebody would ask something

00:21:47.240 --> 00:21:49.000

and there'd just be nothing for like two months.

00:21:49.000 --> 00:21:51.420

And I'd be like, oh my gosh, I can't believe.

00:21:51.420 --> 00:21:56.120

But I did find out, IFTTT, wow, I can't remember.

00:21:56.120 --> 00:21:58.200

- Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, I forgot about that.

00:21:58.200 --> 00:21:59.240

- I don't remember what it stands for.

00:21:59.240 --> 00:22:00.760

Anyway, I'll look at the show.

00:22:00.760 --> 00:22:02.760

If this, then that, thank you.

00:22:02.760 --> 00:22:05.160

- PKM is what you're thinking of.

00:22:05.160 --> 00:22:06.840

- Struggling with the acronyms tonight.

00:22:06.840 --> 00:22:08.760

But there is a way with that

00:22:08.760 --> 00:22:10.480

that I could set up some sort of notification.

00:22:10.480 --> 00:22:11.720

Actually, you know what?

00:22:11.720 --> 00:22:15.320

Now Apollo, which we just mentioned, the Reddit app,

00:22:15.320 --> 00:22:19.960

it has notifications on subreddits that you can set up.

00:22:19.960 --> 00:22:21.720

I think-- - I did not realize.

00:22:21.720 --> 00:22:24.080

- Maybe it's just with Apollo Ultra, I'm not sure.

00:22:24.080 --> 00:22:25.720

If you don't have it and you use Reddit.

00:22:25.720 --> 00:22:30.200

pay for it. No, no, I worth it. Yeah, it's good. I use Apollo every day. I love it. I

00:22:30.200 --> 00:22:35.320

probably sound like a moron. I didn't know. I didn't know you could set up the notifications

00:22:35.320 --> 00:22:40.280

for like, not knowing a feature that's in Apollo is definitely a forgivable offense because

00:22:40.280 --> 00:22:45.560

that's fair. Thank you. A billion of them. I needed that. Thank you. Yeah. Yeah. Very kind.

00:22:45.560 --> 00:22:51.560

Yeah. Christian, I'll send you my invoice for your accidental ad later today. But yes, Apollo,

00:22:51.560 --> 00:22:56.920

go get it. It definitely is a thing that you have to keep up with or it can turn on you.

00:22:56.920 --> 00:23:01.480

And that's especially true with just support in general. Actually, maybe this is a little

00:23:01.480 --> 00:23:05.800

rabbit hole we can go down because we're recording at night. So you're getting unstructured, Charlie.

00:23:05.800 --> 00:23:11.880

How do you deal with support? I've noticed your website is one beautiful, but two,

00:23:11.880 --> 00:23:19.080

has a lot of things regarding frequently asked questions and support and community features.

00:23:19.080 --> 00:23:23.800

How do you manage that? Because I have been spectacularly failing with dark

00:23:23.800 --> 00:23:26.760

noise with keeping up with email and I don't know what to do.

00:23:26.760 --> 00:23:26.840

Yeah.

00:23:26.840 --> 00:23:29.160

Since I don't have, it's not my full-time job and I can't say,

00:23:29.160 --> 00:23:34.200

I spend four hours every Friday morning or something on it. I don't know how to deal with it.

00:23:34.200 --> 00:23:40.920

It can be a lot of times. What I do that is, so what's helped me is

00:23:40.920 --> 00:23:49.000

if I get a question from someone via email, it's pretty common that, or it's pretty likely

00:23:49.000 --> 00:23:57.320

that someone else is going to have that question. So, what I will do is I will set aside 15 minutes

00:23:57.320 --> 00:24:04.840

and just write that up as like, you know, a support document on the website. And then I will just,

00:24:04.840 --> 00:24:09.560

"Here's the link." Right? Like, "Oh, I have an answer to that. Here's the link." I can't tell

00:24:09.560 --> 00:24:16.360

you how much time it saved long-term to take 10 to 15 minutes, write up the support page,

00:24:17.720 --> 00:24:23.720

And then the number of times I shared just the link instead of rewriting it is it's it's wild. It's like

00:24:23.720 --> 00:24:28.200

Every time I go i'm so glad I did this, you know in the moment

00:24:28.200 --> 00:24:31.320

It's it's easy. It's easy to just like not do it, right?

00:24:31.320 --> 00:24:33.640

Like there's times i'm like, I don't feel like doing this, right?

00:24:33.640 --> 00:24:40.120

But i've been saved so many times by it that it's just worth it. It's like i'm asking a you know

00:24:40.120 --> 00:24:44.440

102 year old man. How did you do it? How did you stay so healthy and they're like

00:24:45.560 --> 00:24:51.000

I ate my vegetables and took a walk every day. Like it's like, Oh, right. Yes, there is an easy

00:24:51.000 --> 00:24:56.040

answer to this. And I'm just not doing the hard thing once. And instead, I'm taking the lazy

00:24:56.040 --> 00:25:00.520

approach. But yes, we'll just say that that was an aside for the sake of the audience.

00:25:00.520 --> 00:25:06.040

So they could hear that advice. And not because I have not been doing that.

00:25:06.040 --> 00:25:11.000

Easy, just said and done. And but yeah, there's I mean, you know, like, there's,

00:25:11.000 --> 00:25:15.800

there's periods where like the email support just like gets a little too high.

00:25:15.800 --> 00:25:19.800

That's the thing. And that's what happens to me is where it's like,

00:25:19.800 --> 00:25:25.560

you get overwhelmed with it. And then it's like, well, I can't stop and focus on

00:25:25.560 --> 00:25:32.520

getting this support stuff all written and built up because I'm trying to get through all these

00:25:32.520 --> 00:25:37.080

emails. And then the emails go away and then you stop, you know, focusing on that, right?

00:25:37.080 --> 00:25:42.040

Yeah, I think it's just like a forever struggle to just, you know, do your best.

00:25:42.040 --> 00:25:47.960

Do you use, do you just use like normal email or do you have some kind of help triage

00:25:47.960 --> 00:25:50.040

system or service or something?

00:25:50.040 --> 00:25:54.280

I just do it the dumb way. I just have like an email address that people and it just comes in

00:25:54.280 --> 00:25:59.640

and I go, "All right, I'll answer this email now." You know, so yeah, I know there are better tools

00:25:59.640 --> 00:26:06.520

out there, but I, part of me kind of likes the, just the like, yeah, it's just email.

00:26:06.520 --> 00:26:07.520

I don't know.

00:26:07.520 --> 00:26:08.760

Like it's just really simple.

00:26:08.760 --> 00:26:09.760

Yeah.

00:26:09.760 --> 00:26:11.760

I don't, I don't mind it to be honest with you.

00:26:11.760 --> 00:26:12.760

So.

00:26:12.760 --> 00:26:18.680

To kind of pull back into a normal show here, we, we already talked about the fact that

00:26:18.680 --> 00:26:22.520

you did switch over to subscriptions, but we haven't talked about how that actually

00:26:22.520 --> 00:26:23.520

went.

00:26:23.520 --> 00:26:29.080

Um, so one, the switch itself, but then also how has that like impacted the business?

00:26:29.080 --> 00:26:29.580

Yeah.

00:26:29.580 --> 00:26:31.480

Uh, it's been great.

00:26:31.480 --> 00:26:40.040

So, so it's been a year and a half since, uh, subscriptions have launched and I'm

00:26:40.040 --> 00:26:41.680

like, man, I wish I did it sooner.

00:26:41.680 --> 00:26:43.760

Like, so, so good.

00:26:43.760 --> 00:26:48.000

It's, it's scary at first.

00:26:48.000 --> 00:26:52.280

Cause you're like, all right, like I'm asking for real money here.

00:26:52.280 --> 00:26:58.000

And, and I get feedback from, uh, from people, this is not very frequent, but

00:26:58.000 --> 00:27:02.840

Like you can even see on the app store page, this is too expensive, right?

00:27:02.840 --> 00:27:03.640

This is too expensive.

00:27:03.640 --> 00:27:10.660

And I think compared to other apps, like a personal plan for the

00:27:10.660 --> 00:27:13.040

year is 35 bucks for the year.

00:27:13.040 --> 00:27:13.440

Right.

00:27:13.440 --> 00:27:19.260

And, uh, if you compare that to Apollo, which is like, I think it's like 10 bucks

00:27:19.260 --> 00:27:21.420

a year, it's like super cheap.

00:27:21.420 --> 00:27:24.780

I think he's under, he's, he's underpriced.

00:27:24.780 --> 00:27:26.200

He's got scale too, though.

00:27:26.400 --> 00:27:29.000

Uh, I mean, I don't want to say anything about his business necessarily,

00:27:29.000 --> 00:27:32.780

cause I don't have inside knowledge, but, uh, it's definitely, he's definitely

00:27:32.780 --> 00:27:36.300

playing on a different, you know, stratosphere, I feel like in a lot of

00:27:36.300 --> 00:27:36.940

different ways.

00:27:36.940 --> 00:27:37.900

Yeah.

00:27:37.900 --> 00:27:40.380

Um, yeah.

00:27:40.380 --> 00:27:45.140

So like I'll hear that feedback and stuff, but like the growth over the

00:27:45.140 --> 00:27:48.860

past year and a half has been really great.

00:27:48.860 --> 00:27:55.440

And I'm, I'm not picking up on any signs that like it's overpriced.

00:27:56.060 --> 00:28:00.260

If things are growing, plenty of people are very happy to pay.

00:28:00.260 --> 00:28:07.460

And, uh, yeah, I would, so in, uh, I did like a 20, 22 year and a few video.

00:28:07.460 --> 00:28:12.740

And in that, I was like, I was, I was talking to my wife and I was like, I

00:28:12.740 --> 00:28:14.460

don't know what to share here.

00:28:14.460 --> 00:28:15.820

Like, I am not comfortable.

00:28:15.820 --> 00:28:19.460

Like, you know, I was taught growing up, like, you don't talk about money.

00:28:19.460 --> 00:28:21.060

Don't do that.

00:28:21.060 --> 00:28:21.500

Right.

00:28:21.500 --> 00:28:22.300

Like that's rude.

00:28:22.300 --> 00:28:22.820

That's weird.

00:28:23.480 --> 00:28:27.560

And I'm like not comfortable like sharing numbers.

00:28:27.560 --> 00:28:32.200

So, in that video, I was like, "Okay, what can I share that I am comfortable with or

00:28:32.200 --> 00:28:33.480

kind of comfortable with?"

00:28:33.480 --> 00:28:35.640

And that was just like year over year growth.

00:28:35.640 --> 00:28:39.880

And you like, you did a good job of prepending that with, "I know," like,

00:28:39.880 --> 00:28:42.200

you don't know what the initial numbers are, like...

00:28:42.200 --> 00:28:42.520

100%.

00:28:42.520 --> 00:28:42.840

Yeah.

00:28:42.840 --> 00:28:43.560

Yeah.

00:28:43.560 --> 00:28:44.440

I thought that was great.

00:28:44.440 --> 00:28:47.480

That's my comfort level at this point.

00:28:47.480 --> 00:28:53.800

But I also know that like, as like indie developers, information, that kind of information

00:28:53.800 --> 00:29:02.360

is really helpful for us. So, I feel a mix of like guilt by not like giving back to like that

00:29:02.360 --> 00:29:07.560

community that I've learned a ton from and have benefited from. But I'm also like, I don't know,

00:29:07.560 --> 00:29:11.960

man. It's my -- it's like financial stuff. And that's, I don't know, that's pretty private. So...

00:29:11.960 --> 00:29:18.660

So it's it's a weird it's a really weird subject in part because of the same.

00:29:18.660 --> 00:29:23.560

Yeah, like companies are always like don't talk to other employees about how

00:29:23.560 --> 00:29:26.260

much you pay or how much you're paid, which of course they're not supposed to

00:29:26.260 --> 00:29:28.660

do and there's that angle of it, but then they do anyway.

00:29:28.660 --> 00:29:29.160

Yeah, right.

00:29:29.160 --> 00:29:29.560

Yeah.

00:29:29.560 --> 00:29:29.960

Yeah.

00:29:29.960 --> 00:29:34.960

So there's you know, there's a bunch of weird financial things, but even even

00:29:34.960 --> 00:29:40.460

if you like I especially because you know, my stuff all started really small.

00:29:41.160 --> 00:29:42.520

I didn't have any qualms about it.

00:29:42.520 --> 00:29:44.640

And I'd watched, I've talked about this on the show before,

00:29:44.640 --> 00:29:48.960

but I'd watched Jordan Morgan be extremely open

00:29:48.960 --> 00:29:49.800

and thought that was helpful.

00:29:49.800 --> 00:29:51.680

And so I was like, oh, I'll just do the same thing.

00:29:51.680 --> 00:29:54.680

But like, since Dark Noise has grown some,

00:29:54.680 --> 00:29:58.220

and in my opinion has grown despite me

00:29:58.220 --> 00:30:03.220

and the lack of time and skill or whatever you wanna say

00:30:03.220 --> 00:30:04.720

that I was able to put towards it,

00:30:04.720 --> 00:30:08.060

there is an element even once you've accepted,

00:30:08.060 --> 00:30:09.560

like I'm just gonna share everything,

00:30:09.560 --> 00:30:12.360

where you start feeling guilty sharing everything.

00:30:12.360 --> 00:30:17.360

'Cause you're like, am I giving a false pretense to somebody?

00:30:17.360 --> 00:30:20.680

Like I got super lucky and somebody could do

00:30:20.680 --> 00:30:22.600

all the same things as me and the numbers are way lower

00:30:22.600 --> 00:30:24.800

and am I actually making it worse by putting this out there?

00:30:24.800 --> 00:30:26.480

And I think it's just like,

00:30:26.480 --> 00:30:32.520

saying anything publicly is uncomfortable.

00:30:32.520 --> 00:30:33.440

- Correct.

00:30:33.440 --> 00:30:36.660

- And so saying things or not saying things,

00:30:36.660 --> 00:30:38.440

I don't know, I think there's pros and cons to anything.

00:30:38.440 --> 00:30:41.360

So everybody has to come to what they're comfortable with.

00:30:41.360 --> 00:30:45.360

But, but even if you share everything, it's not like, uh, now you feel like

00:30:45.360 --> 00:30:47.760

you're, you know, on top of the world and whatever.

00:30:47.760 --> 00:30:48.700

Yeah.

00:30:48.700 --> 00:30:53.580

It's, it's, it's a weird topic, but when people do it, I, I love it.

00:30:53.580 --> 00:30:54.640

I'm like, oh, this is great.

00:30:54.640 --> 00:30:55.120

I'm learning.

00:30:55.120 --> 00:30:55.800

This is awesome.

00:30:55.800 --> 00:30:56.640

Yeah.

00:30:56.640 --> 00:30:58.320

So that's, that's where like my guilt comes from.

00:30:58.320 --> 00:31:00.840

Cause I feel like I'm withholding, you know?

00:31:00.840 --> 00:31:01.280

So.

00:31:01.280 --> 00:31:06.180

No, because what you're doing, uh, and I, we can just go ahead and jump into this.

00:31:06.220 --> 00:31:08.220

I have a whole topic on different marketing things,

00:31:08.220 --> 00:31:12.580

but one of the marketing things that you've done is you have a YouTube

00:31:12.580 --> 00:31:16.700

channel, but it's not like just,

00:31:16.700 --> 00:31:19.780

here's the features of sofa or here's how you can do a power user thing and

00:31:19.780 --> 00:31:22.340

sofa. It's also like, here's a behind the scenes.

00:31:22.340 --> 00:31:26.140

Look at how I created my press kit. Like that's literally,

00:31:26.140 --> 00:31:27.180

you have a video about that,

00:31:27.180 --> 00:31:31.420

which is obviously not just for you selling copies of,

00:31:31.420 --> 00:31:33.940

of sofa it's it's for the community.

00:31:33.980 --> 00:31:38.060

And I feel like that kind of stuff is arguably a lot more beneficial even.

00:31:38.060 --> 00:31:40.300

Where did that all kind of come from?

00:31:40.300 --> 00:31:41.540

Yeah.

00:31:41.540 --> 00:31:46.940

So, I mean, I watch a lot of YouTube, like an unhealthy amount, maybe, but it's great.

00:31:46.940 --> 00:31:53.260

Um, I mean, I, I mean, so many people say it's like just the things you can learn

00:31:53.260 --> 00:31:55.180

on YouTube, it's just unbelievable.

00:31:55.180 --> 00:31:59.500

Most of the things I've learned about iOS development, I learned on YouTube.

00:31:59.500 --> 00:32:01.540

It's, it's just so good.

00:32:02.260 --> 00:32:09.820

And um, one of the things I there's like, um, photography is a hobby of mine.

00:32:09.820 --> 00:32:18.160

And that whole like area of YouTube is very interesting because they do

00:32:18.160 --> 00:32:19.640

tons of behind the scenes stuff.

00:32:19.640 --> 00:32:22.940

And I'm like, like one of the things I love watching, which is, it's

00:32:22.940 --> 00:32:27.640

going to sound really weird, but I love watching behind the scenes videos

00:32:27.680 --> 00:32:30.280

of photographers at weddings.

00:32:30.280 --> 00:32:33.300

Because to me, it's something I would never wanna do

00:32:33.300 --> 00:32:35.120

because the stress.

00:32:35.120 --> 00:32:37.220

It just seems like, don't screw this up.

00:32:37.220 --> 00:32:38.620

Like there's one shot here.

00:32:38.620 --> 00:32:40.440

And they just kill it.

00:32:40.440 --> 00:32:42.240

They just do so well.

00:32:42.240 --> 00:32:44.720

And they're also like shooting behind the scenes stuff

00:32:44.720 --> 00:32:48.100

as they're, you know, doing this person's wedding.

00:32:48.100 --> 00:32:50.780

But it's such a great way to learn too.

00:32:50.780 --> 00:32:53.360

Like as if, you know, to learn photography.

00:32:53.360 --> 00:32:55.520

And then there's this also,

00:32:55.520 --> 00:32:57.920

they POV videos of photographers.

00:32:57.920 --> 00:33:00.060

They like hook a GoPro up to their chest

00:33:00.060 --> 00:33:02.620

and then like walk around and take pictures.

00:33:02.620 --> 00:33:07.180

And it's such a great way to learn how they take pictures,

00:33:07.180 --> 00:33:09.980

like how they frame stuff, what their settings are,

00:33:09.980 --> 00:33:11.500

what they're seeing, what they're not seeing,

00:33:11.500 --> 00:33:13.100

that kind of stuff.

00:33:13.100 --> 00:33:16.220

And so bringing that back to SOFA,

00:33:16.220 --> 00:33:19.320

I mean, I'm doing stuff all the time, right?

00:33:19.320 --> 00:33:23.060

Like I have the website, I make a press kit.

00:33:23.060 --> 00:33:24.500

You know, we talked about like support pages

00:33:24.500 --> 00:33:30.820

stuff like that. I think, I actually think there's an overabundance of content for indie

00:33:30.820 --> 00:33:35.700

developers around code, right? Which is great. I don't need to contribute to that, right?

00:33:35.700 --> 00:33:40.340

Because my code ain't going to help anybody, right? Like, there are way better people for that.

00:33:40.340 --> 00:33:47.940

But when it comes to like, kind of your kind of product infrastructure, right? And how you do

00:33:47.940 --> 00:33:54.260

things and how you can scale yourself to be a little bit bigger than just one person.

00:33:54.260 --> 00:34:02.020

I think that stuff's really interesting. And I'm like, "Oh, I have ideas and opinions here

00:34:02.020 --> 00:34:07.220

that I think are worth sharing and people can learn from." Like, you can take, just take a

00:34:07.220 --> 00:34:10.180

little nugget that you like from the video and use it. You know, that's fine. You don't have

00:34:10.180 --> 00:34:13.060

to use the whole thing. - Yeah. I mean, that's the thing.

00:34:13.780 --> 00:34:16.740

It's kind of like, it's like getting to work with somebody.

00:34:16.740 --> 00:34:17.620

Yeah.

00:34:17.620 --> 00:34:22.900

In the sense that, like, so much of what I know how to do professionally is because I

00:34:22.900 --> 00:34:26.500

worked with people, at least I used to work with people in the same space, and you just

00:34:26.500 --> 00:34:30.420

see how they do things and like, hear people's thought processes as you go.

00:34:30.420 --> 00:34:35.060

And especially in the indie scene, but even on top of that, in the like,

00:34:35.060 --> 00:34:42.100

indie marketing, running a business, whatever you want to call that world,

00:34:42.820 --> 00:34:49.300

Most of us are doing that much more insular from the world, right?

00:34:49.300 --> 00:34:53.860

So like Twitter was pretty much the only space where I feel like I ever saw

00:34:53.860 --> 00:35:00.020

that kind of stuff really talked about. Like a press kit. People might talk about it there.

00:35:00.020 --> 00:35:06.900

But I feel like your video, I got like a dozen things from that. I literally have some notes

00:35:06.900 --> 00:35:10.900

from when I watched that one where I'm like, "Ooh!" Or not notes, but I threw it into my

00:35:12.020 --> 00:35:16.620

feedback for me. Yeah. I mean, like the idea of using notion, like, of course, I

00:35:16.620 --> 00:35:21.140

knew that that's a thing you could do. And when I first, like, when you first

00:35:21.140 --> 00:35:24.580

brought up that you use notion for your press kit, I was like, Oh, that's kind

00:35:24.580 --> 00:35:28.300

of a clever idea. But like, I have a system that kind of works well for me.

00:35:28.300 --> 00:35:31.780

But then there was a couple more things that you said, where I was like, Hmm,

00:35:31.780 --> 00:35:34.780

maybe I should really consider that. And then by the end of it, I'm like,

00:35:34.780 --> 00:35:39.860

alright, I'm adding a task to research. So like, what would it be like to

00:35:39.860 --> 00:35:42.180

switch this over to notion or craft or one of those.

00:35:42.180 --> 00:35:43.500

- Hmm, yeah, yeah.

00:35:43.500 --> 00:35:45.380

- Because it solved a couple little problems

00:35:45.380 --> 00:35:47.780

and it's like, I knew that existed

00:35:47.780 --> 00:35:50.520

because people have talked about stuff like that on Twitter.

00:35:50.520 --> 00:35:53.880

But watching you and hearing you talk through

00:35:53.880 --> 00:35:57.020

why you did it is a big part of, you know,

00:35:57.020 --> 00:36:00.860

what sort of got my brain chugging on that idea.

00:36:00.860 --> 00:36:02.880

So I love that kind of stuff.

00:36:02.880 --> 00:36:03.820

- That's cool, man.

00:36:03.820 --> 00:36:04.660

That's nice.

00:36:04.660 --> 00:36:08.940

Yeah, I mean, I've ideas for tons more videos like that.

00:36:08.940 --> 00:36:11.020

And I never want to be like preachy with stuff.

00:36:11.020 --> 00:36:14.380

Um, it just more like, Hey, this is what I did.

00:36:14.380 --> 00:36:15.200

Here's why I did it.

00:36:15.200 --> 00:36:18.040

And if, if it's helpful for you, great.

00:36:18.040 --> 00:36:18.840

You know?

00:36:18.840 --> 00:36:23.540

Um, cause you know, everyone's situation's different and it may not be a one

00:36:23.540 --> 00:36:25.680

to one match for, uh, for what people need.

00:36:25.680 --> 00:36:30.460

So, but I do think that, um, you might say like, okay, that stuff's

00:36:30.460 --> 00:36:31.780

great for like developers and stuff.

00:36:31.780 --> 00:36:34.780

I think people are just interested though.

00:36:34.780 --> 00:36:35.060

Right?

00:36:35.060 --> 00:36:39.520

Like people use apps all the time, but they have no clue where it comes from.

00:36:39.520 --> 00:36:40.960

They don't know who makes them.

00:36:40.960 --> 00:36:42.480

They don't know what's involved.

00:36:42.480 --> 00:36:48.480

And I think like one of my long-term ideas with the YouTube stuff, because the

00:36:48.480 --> 00:36:50.240

YouTube channel is like crazy small, right?

00:36:50.240 --> 00:36:52.200

Like it's, and that's totally fine.

00:36:52.200 --> 00:36:57.000

But the long-term idea is that, okay, I'm, you know, I'm asking people

00:36:57.000 --> 00:36:59.100

to pay real money for this thing.

00:36:59.100 --> 00:37:03.760

They have no idea who I am and they may not even know.

00:37:03.800 --> 00:37:07.240

They may think like, we hear the joke all the time, like everyone thinks just

00:37:07.240 --> 00:37:08.600

Apple makes all the apps, right?

00:37:08.600 --> 00:37:08.880

Yeah.

00:37:08.880 --> 00:37:18.680

So I have intentionally and uncomfortably put my face in, in different parts of the

00:37:18.680 --> 00:37:25.320

app and like the marketing stuff, uh, and with the YouTube channel more as a way to

00:37:25.320 --> 00:37:30.840

show that, like, there's like a real person here and it's not just like some big

00:37:30.840 --> 00:37:35.480

companies just trying to like cash grab stuff and look at all the work that I do for this.

00:37:35.480 --> 00:37:43.640

Like this is, this takes time. This takes a lot of effort and I mean, gang, 35 bucks a year

00:37:43.640 --> 00:37:51.320

is not expensive. I'm sorry. It's just not. Like it's not. So, you know, that's a hill I will die

00:37:51.320 --> 00:37:59.480

on. Yeah, it's interesting like, because I do the same kind of thing. I feel like I, a lot of my

00:37:59.480 --> 00:38:04.040

support requests, and even reviews a lot of times will literally call me up by name.

00:38:04.040 --> 00:38:08.040

They'll be like, "Hey, Charlie," or "Charlie's a great..." whatever,

00:38:08.040 --> 00:38:11.800

which is awesome when it's positive.

00:38:11.800 --> 00:38:12.360

Awesome.

00:38:12.360 --> 00:38:19.080

But I always wonder... I've talked to a lot of people on this show about this exact thing,

00:38:19.080 --> 00:38:25.080

where it's like, there's a point... Whenever you're doing a thing on the side in our community,

00:38:25.080 --> 00:38:28.760

most people using it at first are probably going to be other people in our community,

00:38:28.760 --> 00:38:31.960

because that's who you reach, right? But if you start getting traction on the store,

00:38:31.960 --> 00:38:39.640

the majority of people that are downloading your app, you got that acquisition through the app

00:38:39.640 --> 00:38:45.160

store. There didn't go to your website. They don't know who you are on Twitter. I doubt that they're

00:38:45.160 --> 00:38:52.440

on your YouTube page. So do you also integrate your face or your name or anything like that

00:38:52.440 --> 00:38:56.360

in the app itself? Yeah. In the settings page,

00:38:57.320 --> 00:39:01.200

Like if you scroll to bottom, my very beautiful face is there.

00:39:01.200 --> 00:39:02.700

Okay, so your actual face is there.

00:39:02.700 --> 00:39:04.600

I didn't notice that before.

00:39:04.600 --> 00:39:07.960

And it's small enough so that I look better.

00:39:07.960 --> 00:39:11.880

You know, if it was bigger, it wouldn't be horrifying.

00:39:11.880 --> 00:39:14.680

Oh yeah, look at that.

00:39:14.680 --> 00:39:15.960

But yeah, just subtle ways.

00:39:15.960 --> 00:39:19.880

And again, like, that's also like kind of buried, right?

00:39:19.880 --> 00:39:23.080

It's like in settings all the way at the bottom, right?

00:39:23.080 --> 00:39:24.080

Which is fine, right?

00:39:24.080 --> 00:39:27.500

I'm not trying to hit people over the head with this,

00:39:27.500 --> 00:39:32.280

but for those that are kind of curious, it can be helpful.

00:39:32.280 --> 00:39:34.920

Most people are probably not gonna care though,

00:39:34.920 --> 00:39:36.280

which is fine.

00:39:36.280 --> 00:39:40.200

- Right, it's nice whenever that stuff's surrounding

00:39:40.200 --> 00:39:44.400

the parts where they start trying to solve a problem.

00:39:44.400 --> 00:39:47.600

If you can find the areas where people are frustrated

00:39:47.600 --> 00:39:49.600

and at those points make it more obvious

00:39:49.600 --> 00:39:52.400

that it's a single human being behind this,

00:39:52.400 --> 00:39:53.280

like maybe that helps.

00:39:53.280 --> 00:39:59.040

- Yeah. And it's true. Like you just said it, like people say, call you out by name,

00:39:59.040 --> 00:40:04.960

like, "Oh, hey, Charlie." People do it to me too through support emails. I like that. I think it's

00:40:04.960 --> 00:40:12.000

nice, you know? Because like, they know it's me, right? It's not like, "To whom it may concern,"

00:40:12.000 --> 00:40:16.640

right? Kind of thing. Or like, "Dear company." It's like, "Hey, Sean, there's this problem. Can

00:40:16.640 --> 00:40:21.520

you please help me?" So, it's nice. - Yeah. There's definitely a different

00:40:22.160 --> 00:40:27.040

voice in support emails when somebody realizes you're a person.

00:40:27.040 --> 00:40:32.280

Because I also get support emails that'll be like referencing the team or

00:40:32.280 --> 00:40:36.720

you all or, you know, words like that where it's like, oh, this person thinks

00:40:36.720 --> 00:40:38.240

I'm a company company.

00:40:38.240 --> 00:40:43.160

And then when I respond, I'm a little more, I mean, I'm always pretty personal

00:40:43.160 --> 00:40:46.760

because usually I'm trying to reply on my phone while my kids are brushing

00:40:46.760 --> 00:40:47.520

their teeth or something.

00:40:47.520 --> 00:40:48.440

Oh yeah.

00:40:49.200 --> 00:40:53.200

And like the next reply that you get back, you know, if the person's angry or

00:40:53.200 --> 00:40:57.640

whatever is usually a lot more, uh, human, if that makes sense.

00:40:57.640 --> 00:40:59.040

A hundred percent.

00:40:59.040 --> 00:41:02.780

It's a great way to diffuse any kind of tension that's there.

00:41:02.780 --> 00:41:06.800

You know, I imagine there's arguments for the other way in terms of, especially

00:41:06.800 --> 00:41:10.120

depending on the type of app that you're building, if, if you want the trust of

00:41:10.120 --> 00:41:14.360

being a company and not an individual, because there's an assumption you make

00:41:14.360 --> 00:41:18.920

whenever you download software and it's like, oh, this is some guy in, you know,

00:41:18.920 --> 00:41:23.600

their mom's basement or whatever making this and you kind of have a idea in your

00:41:23.600 --> 00:41:27.200

head of what level of support and quality you should get out of this.

00:41:27.200 --> 00:41:30.840

Um, but I guess if the app speaks for itself, then by the time they've gotten

00:41:30.840 --> 00:41:36.320

to the point of realizing you're a person, they already know that this is a, an app

00:41:36.320 --> 00:41:38.200

with the quality that you've already presented.

00:41:38.200 --> 00:41:42.540

And there's like a, you know, most people don't write in, right?

00:41:42.540 --> 00:41:46.040

Like there's also like the, there's the selection of folks who actually take

00:41:46.040 --> 00:41:51.240

time do it, which is awesome. But most people, if they run into an issue or if they have a question,

00:41:51.240 --> 00:41:56.760

they probably just like, "I guess I can't figure this out. I guess it's broken." You know? And

00:41:56.760 --> 00:42:01.560

then they just like put it away. I struggled for a long time figuring out how to do your like,

00:42:01.560 --> 00:42:06.120

my signature at the end of an email that's like a genuine support this person's having trouble,

00:42:06.120 --> 00:42:09.560

you know? Because it always feels weird saying, "Thanks!" with an exclamation point,

00:42:09.560 --> 00:42:13.800

Charlie, salutations felt a little too formal.

00:42:13.800 --> 00:42:14.920

Yeah.

00:42:14.920 --> 00:42:19.560

And what I kind of landed on most of the time is "Thanks for reaching out."

00:42:19.560 --> 00:42:22.120

And that wording...

00:42:22.120 --> 00:42:22.840

That's a good one.

00:42:22.840 --> 00:42:26.520

...to that point that you just made of like, "Most people don't reach out."

00:42:26.520 --> 00:42:30.920

And I want to signal like, "I'm really grateful that you didn't just

00:42:30.920 --> 00:42:34.280

bail or leave a bad review. You actually pinged me."

00:42:34.280 --> 00:42:34.920

Yes.

00:42:34.920 --> 00:42:40.360

And so that's kind of why, like, probably nobody that gets my emails cares what the signature is,

00:42:40.360 --> 00:42:45.400

but it makes it easier for me to send them now, having that kind of at the end of most of them.

00:42:45.400 --> 00:42:52.040

Yeah. I've been doing, if it's a Super Sofa subscriber who emails me,

00:42:52.040 --> 00:42:56.360

I'll say every time, "Thanks for your support." Every time.

00:42:56.360 --> 00:42:56.440

Yeah.

00:42:56.440 --> 00:43:02.200

So, and like, because it's true. Thank you. Like, that's amazing that... Dude, isn't it weird that,

00:43:02.200 --> 00:43:05.800

like you made something and someone bought it like someone

00:43:05.800 --> 00:43:10.200

freaks me out. Yeah. Yeah. That's I've said that on the

00:43:10.200 --> 00:43:13.720

show too, but like like when support email gets heavy, which

00:43:13.720 --> 00:43:15.720

I'm in a phase right now where it's a little heavier. I don't

00:43:15.720 --> 00:43:19.160

have this feeling admittedly, but there are times where I'll

00:43:19.160 --> 00:43:24.520

get a support email that like in iOS 16 or in iOS like dot

00:43:24.520 --> 00:43:27.480

update broke something or even an update that I pushed out

00:43:27.480 --> 00:43:30.520

broke something and it'll happen right after one of those

00:43:30.520 --> 00:43:36.120

things happen. And my initial feeling is usually not like, "Oh, I gotta go fix this." It's like,

00:43:36.120 --> 00:43:41.080

"Somebody noticed." Like, "There's a human being behind these numbers." You know? Like,

00:43:41.080 --> 00:43:45.720

yeah, that is actually like a really nice feeling, surprisingly.

00:43:45.720 --> 00:43:55.240

Oh, it's amazing. Like, someone cares enough to even like write an email. It's just, it's so nice.

00:43:55.880 --> 00:44:03.640

Yeah. Yeah. Even even the I haven't gotten like a super mean one, but the ones that are maybe a little there's a little, uh,

00:44:03.640 --> 00:44:13.800

a little aggressiveness behind it, you know, uh, hey, thanks for writing it. That's cool. You know, you care enough to you care enough to get mad. That's cool. You know?

00:44:14.200 --> 00:44:23.800

Yeah, I haven't had to deal with the like the really angry thing, but I'm I'm I'm very girded up for it, uh, preparing for this subscription switch because

00:44:23.800 --> 00:44:42.400

Usually the most, uh, I don't know how to phrase this hostile is not the right word, but like, yeah, the ones that make me feel a little tense, uh, are usually the ones that are like, thank you so much for not being one of the horrible mean, angry, terrible, awful money grabbing developers that uses subscriptions.

00:44:42.400 --> 00:44:44.480

and I'm kind of like, "Oh no."

00:44:44.480 --> 00:44:45.320

- Not yet.

00:44:45.320 --> 00:44:46.960

(both laughing)

00:44:46.960 --> 00:44:49.200

- That's a threat, isn't it?

00:44:49.200 --> 00:44:51.280

And they're probably not meaning it that way, you know?

00:44:51.280 --> 00:44:52.120

- Yeah.

00:44:52.120 --> 00:44:54.000

- But it always feels that way to me,

00:44:54.000 --> 00:44:56.840

like you're gonna come back for me, aren't you?

00:44:56.840 --> 00:44:58.120

- I mean, they might, right?

00:44:58.120 --> 00:45:00.040

- Well, hopefully they won't, 'cause I'm not gonna like,

00:45:00.040 --> 00:45:01.040

- Yeah, yeah. - take it away

00:45:01.040 --> 00:45:02.720

from somebody who's already paid, but.

00:45:02.720 --> 00:45:04.640

- Yeah, how are you doing with all that?

00:45:04.640 --> 00:45:06.640

Is that getting close, you think?

00:45:06.640 --> 00:45:08.480

And if you don't wanna talk about it, that's fine.

00:45:08.480 --> 00:45:10.640

- I'm always afraid I'm gonna like turn this into

00:45:10.640 --> 00:45:12.240

me talking about my things show.

00:45:12.240 --> 00:45:17.140

So, well, people aren't here for me though.

00:45:17.140 --> 00:45:17.840

They're here for you.

00:45:17.840 --> 00:45:23.860

Um, but, uh, but no, I am a decent ways into it.

00:45:23.860 --> 00:45:31.060

I, uh, you know, there was a bunch of company, my job, job stuff that all, uh,

00:45:31.060 --> 00:45:34.480

all kind of got crazy for a little bit.

00:45:34.480 --> 00:45:37.700

That was making me really drive on a lot of these things.

00:45:37.700 --> 00:45:41.320

Um, and so I'm on the other side of that.

00:45:41.320 --> 00:45:44.680

And now the jobby job's taking a little bit more of my brain power.

00:45:44.680 --> 00:45:49.800

So I've slowed down a little bit, but my, probably my top priority right now is to

00:45:49.800 --> 00:45:52.320

get that switch taken care of.

00:45:52.320 --> 00:45:54.800

Cause it's weighing heavily on my brain.

00:45:54.800 --> 00:45:59.320

And also I keep hearing things from people like you saying, I just wish I had switched

00:45:59.320 --> 00:45:59.760

it sooner.

00:45:59.760 --> 00:46:01.920

And I'm like, I'm already, I've already made the decision.

00:46:01.920 --> 00:46:05.960

Now I just want it to be switched over and to deal with these consequences.

00:46:05.960 --> 00:46:10.440

But I work very slowly, deliberately is the word I use.

00:46:10.440 --> 00:46:12.540

But really what I mean is scared, scaredly.

00:46:12.540 --> 00:46:16.340

Um, yeah, the fear is real.

00:46:16.340 --> 00:46:16.980

Oh my God.

00:46:16.980 --> 00:46:19.680

Fear of messing things up of bugs of yeah.

00:46:19.680 --> 00:46:20.560

And any of that stuff.

00:46:20.560 --> 00:46:24.740

I'm, I'm a very slow developer, but, um, yeah, well, I'm slower than you.

00:46:24.740 --> 00:46:25.500

It's brutal.

00:46:25.500 --> 00:46:26.160

Yeah.

00:46:26.160 --> 00:46:31.200

It's like, sometimes I'm like, when am I even like, how did I make it here?

00:46:31.200 --> 00:46:33.380

You know, like how'd I get here?

00:46:33.380 --> 00:46:38.980

It's crazy how like continually working on something.

00:46:40.400 --> 00:46:44.080

when you look back, you've traveled forward.

00:46:44.080 --> 00:46:48.880

Like, walking really, really slowly for multiple years

00:46:48.880 --> 00:46:50.720

still gets you somewhere.

00:46:50.720 --> 00:46:51.560

- Yes.

00:46:51.560 --> 00:46:54.260

- And that's the thing that's been weird with,

00:46:54.260 --> 00:46:57.200

I think, and maybe you've experienced this too,

00:46:57.200 --> 00:47:03.000

but like by being so public about what I'm working on,

00:47:03.000 --> 00:47:07.160

it's sort of this natural driver to like get back

00:47:07.160 --> 00:47:11.160

to the thing that people in my head know me for.

00:47:11.160 --> 00:47:12.440

- Sure.

00:47:12.440 --> 00:47:15.380

- And because of that, even when I'm in like the down times

00:47:15.380 --> 00:47:18.060

where I'm just not moving or anything,

00:47:18.060 --> 00:47:20.780

I'm still just like plugging away at little tickets

00:47:20.780 --> 00:47:23.580

I can pull or little small things I can do.

00:47:23.580 --> 00:47:28.920

And then when those iOS 16 or iOS updates come out

00:47:28.920 --> 00:47:31.200

or new features or whatever happened,

00:47:31.200 --> 00:47:32.920

then I like kind of pull it together

00:47:32.920 --> 00:47:35.360

and get a couple of features all at once.

00:47:35.360 --> 00:47:36.780

But then yeah, when you look back on it,

00:47:36.780 --> 00:47:40.580

you're like, you know, I actually did make some stuff, didn't I?

00:47:40.580 --> 00:47:41.980

Like this is moving forward.

00:47:41.980 --> 00:47:44.280

It's not as stagnant as it feels like in my head.

00:47:44.280 --> 00:47:47.580

Yeah, just I mean just showing up.

00:47:47.580 --> 00:47:51.580

It's like just show up regularly and you'll make progress.

00:47:51.580 --> 00:47:53.880

Yeah, if it's like little bits at a time.

00:47:53.880 --> 00:47:58.180

This episode of launched is brought to you by impress kit.

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So okay, we're talking about marketing right now.

00:49:07.000 --> 00:49:09.320

Man, you're really getting late night Charlie here

00:49:09.320 --> 00:49:12.320

with the tangents. - Oh, you're good.

00:49:12.320 --> 00:49:13.520

- So there was a couple of other things

00:49:13.520 --> 00:49:14.360

I did wanna talk about.

00:49:14.360 --> 00:49:15.660

So we talked about the YouTube channel.

00:49:15.660 --> 00:49:17.480

I don't even know if we talked about why you started.

00:49:17.480 --> 00:49:18.320

Oh yeah, we did.

00:49:18.320 --> 00:49:21.000

We talked a lot about why you started the YouTube channel.

00:49:21.000 --> 00:49:23.440

But there's a couple other things that you've talked about.

00:49:23.440 --> 00:49:27.980

One of them is doing some paid sponsorships advertisements

00:49:27.980 --> 00:49:29.440

for different things.

00:49:29.440 --> 00:49:32.520

Like there was some podcasts that you did last year.

00:49:32.520 --> 00:49:35.680

I'm curious, again, why you chose to do that

00:49:35.680 --> 00:49:37.360

and then how it went.

00:49:37.360 --> 00:49:41.800

- Yeah, so, I mean, marketing is like,

00:49:41.800 --> 00:49:45.600

I feel like I've, you know, this podcast is great

00:49:45.600 --> 00:49:49.160

because I've got to hear so many other developers

00:49:49.160 --> 00:49:51.000

talk about stuff like this.

00:49:51.000 --> 00:49:52.600

And I feel like marketing is the one thing

00:49:52.600 --> 00:49:54.160

that keeps coming up is like,

00:49:54.160 --> 00:49:55.880

yeah, this is like, I don't really know what to do

00:49:55.880 --> 00:49:58.060

or it's really hard and all that stuff.

00:49:59.660 --> 00:50:03.780

And also, just getting attention is just so hard.

00:50:03.780 --> 00:50:04.620

- Yeah.

00:50:04.620 --> 00:50:07.260

- Because everyone is screaming for attention.

00:50:07.260 --> 00:50:09.580

Like everybody, whether it's on Twitter,

00:50:09.580 --> 00:50:12.340

or just social media or whatever.

00:50:12.340 --> 00:50:18.860

And the realization I came to is that

00:50:18.860 --> 00:50:26.580

the market is so saturated in terms of apps

00:50:27.340 --> 00:50:31.300

that I'm gonna have to pay for some attention

00:50:31.300 --> 00:50:35.760

as opposed to like earning it from scratch.

00:50:35.760 --> 00:50:38.860

Like I just kind of like accepted that

00:50:38.860 --> 00:50:40.260

and I'm okay with it.

00:50:40.260 --> 00:50:41.260

Like that's fine.

00:50:41.260 --> 00:50:43.220

Like most businesses have to pay to advertise.

00:50:43.220 --> 00:50:44.460

That's kind of how it works, right?

00:50:44.460 --> 00:50:46.380

Like that's pretty normal, right?

00:50:46.380 --> 00:50:49.620

If you go to like any local business in your town,

00:50:49.620 --> 00:50:51.700

they're like, yeah, we have to advertise.

00:50:51.700 --> 00:50:53.740

I don't really know what's the problem, right?

00:50:53.740 --> 00:50:54.980

Like that's how it works.

00:50:56.860 --> 00:51:00.200

The reason I wanted to start with podcast is,

00:51:00.200 --> 00:51:05.860

when I was thinking about the sponsors

00:51:05.860 --> 00:51:09.460

or the ads that I have come across in different media,

00:51:09.460 --> 00:51:11.860

whether it's like, I don't really see YouTube ads anymore

00:51:11.860 --> 00:51:12.860

'cause I have YouTube premium,

00:51:12.860 --> 00:51:17.860

but whether it was like YouTube or on Twitter

00:51:17.860 --> 00:51:20.700

or like, you know, Instagram ads are amazing.

00:51:20.700 --> 00:51:22.620

Like they're, because you're always like,

00:51:22.620 --> 00:51:24.380

oh, that looks good, it looks good.

00:51:25.420 --> 00:51:28.220

But the stuff that I always valued was,

00:51:28.220 --> 00:51:31.100

a lot of it comes from podcasts, to be honest with you.

00:51:31.100 --> 00:51:36.100

There's something about hearing the host read it.

00:51:36.100 --> 00:51:37.260

- Oh yeah.

00:51:37.260 --> 00:51:40.300

- That it just hits different, it just does.

00:51:40.300 --> 00:51:43.780

And so that's why I wanted to do that and start there.

00:51:43.780 --> 00:51:46.700

And again, I'd never written ad copy before.

00:51:46.700 --> 00:51:48.780

So I was like, okay, I have to write ad copy.

00:51:48.780 --> 00:51:50.380

So I like went back and like,

00:51:50.380 --> 00:51:52.060

I was like really listening to ads

00:51:52.060 --> 00:51:53.900

in a different way than I was before.

00:51:54.820 --> 00:52:02.580

So, yeah, so then I, and I picked a few Apple-centric podcasts, like Connected,

00:52:02.580 --> 00:52:10.260

Focused, the talk show at the end of the year, sponsored. I actually even sponsored Daring

00:52:10.260 --> 00:52:13.540

Fireball over the summer, like the site. Oh, the website.

00:52:13.540 --> 00:52:18.260

Yeah, which, so this is gonna sound weird, but like, I remember thinking, I was like,

00:52:18.260 --> 00:52:23.860

"Oh, one day I want, I want to, I want to sponsor that." Like, like, I've, like many of us read

00:52:23.860 --> 00:52:29.380

daring fireball for years. And I just like, "Oh yeah, I want to do that one day." And I did it

00:52:29.380 --> 00:52:35.300

over the summer. It was great. And sponsoring a talk show was great. And all the other podcasts

00:52:35.300 --> 00:52:43.300

was great. And I think the way I'm thinking of it is it's not like direct advertising,

00:52:43.300 --> 00:52:49.940

like direct response where I'm expecting immediate returns on this stuff. Because if you think about

00:52:50.740 --> 00:52:56.340

a lot of products that you come across or a lot of brands, you just, you get hit with so much stuff

00:52:56.340 --> 00:53:03.300

now that you may actually need to hear something a few times or come across something a few times

00:53:03.300 --> 00:53:08.980

before you actually do anything about it. So... There's a name for that, right? Is that brand

00:53:08.980 --> 00:53:14.100

advertising or... Yeah, brand advertising. Okay, yeah. Like that's like your Coca-Cola is sponsoring

00:53:14.100 --> 00:53:17.620

a skateboarding event or something. And it's like, obviously,

00:53:19.140 --> 00:53:25.220

They don't have a special URL that everybody that goes to that event is, you know, going to

00:53:25.220 --> 00:53:33.460

coca-cola.com/extreme and they can directly attribute that, but it's like getting their

00:53:33.460 --> 00:53:39.060

name more well-known, I guess. Yeah, or just keeping it in people's minds, that kind of stuff.

00:53:39.060 --> 00:53:43.300

Yeah. Yeah, but for me, like, I'm literally starting from zero, right? Like, nobody knows

00:53:43.300 --> 00:53:52.500

who Sofa is and who I am. So, my approach to this is definitely more long-term and I

00:53:52.500 --> 00:54:00.580

am very happy with how everything performed this year in terms of like ROI, right? Like,

00:54:00.580 --> 00:54:06.500

let's talk about ROI, bro, right? That's probably the word I hate the most is the word ROI.

00:54:06.500 --> 00:54:07.220

Really? Oh.

00:54:07.220 --> 00:54:07.460

It's a trash word.

00:54:07.460 --> 00:54:10.420

You gotta pronounce it Roy in your head or Roe-y.

00:54:10.420 --> 00:54:11.620

I like Roy. Yeah.

00:54:11.620 --> 00:54:12.500

Yeah, Roy is fun.

00:54:12.500 --> 00:54:16.620

Do they, do they have a, if we can say EBITDA, we can say Roy.

00:54:16.620 --> 00:54:20.280

You're pulling out the weird ones.

00:54:20.280 --> 00:54:20.660

That's good.

00:54:20.660 --> 00:54:21.000

EBITDA.

00:54:21.000 --> 00:54:21.300

Yeah.

00:54:21.300 --> 00:54:21.660

Okay.

00:54:21.660 --> 00:54:22.380

Let's talk about EBITDA.

00:54:22.380 --> 00:54:29.140

Um, yeah, so, and the podcast stuff is, is it's like a form of brain advertising

00:54:29.140 --> 00:54:34.020

and direct response where like, I did say, Hey, go to sofa HQ.com/thetalkshow.

00:54:34.020 --> 00:54:34.320

Right.

00:54:34.320 --> 00:54:38.180

So I am able to see some metrics from that, but it's also not a guarantee that

00:54:38.180 --> 00:54:39.500

people will go click on it.

00:54:39.500 --> 00:54:39.840

Right.

00:54:39.840 --> 00:54:43.600

because they might just go to the app store or they might just not do anything.

00:54:43.600 --> 00:54:48.400

How did you, I mean, I won't ask specifics, just, I don't know if you don't want to like

00:54:48.400 --> 00:54:54.160

call out certain shows or whatever, but like, did you, like, did you feel like at least some

00:54:54.160 --> 00:54:59.360

of those they paid for themselves or was that an investment that's a long term thing?

00:54:59.360 --> 00:55:03.600

I'm trying to think because I don't want to, I don't want to say this in a way that like makes

00:55:03.600 --> 00:55:05.760

any other show look bad.

00:55:05.760 --> 00:55:06.400

Sure, right.

00:55:07.040 --> 00:55:11.840

I would say in the aggregate, everything paid for itself and more.

00:55:11.840 --> 00:55:13.440

- Okay. - So, yeah.

00:55:13.440 --> 00:55:19.280

So it was well worth it and I plan to do more of it in 2023.

00:55:19.280 --> 00:55:20.320

- That's interesting.

00:55:20.320 --> 00:55:25.600

So do you have in your head or not in your head, in written down somewhere,

00:55:25.600 --> 00:55:33.920

I should know the acronym for this off the top of my head, but how much a user is worth?

00:55:33.920 --> 00:55:35.760

- Oh, like the lifetime value?

00:55:35.760 --> 00:55:36.800

- Thank you. - The LTVs?

00:55:36.800 --> 00:55:38.560

- Yes, LTV, there we go, man.

00:55:38.560 --> 00:55:40.800

- LTV, yeah.

00:55:40.800 --> 00:55:41.640

LGTV.

00:55:41.640 --> 00:55:43.880

- We're turning into a real business podcast here.

00:55:43.880 --> 00:55:45.720

- I know, look at us.

00:55:45.720 --> 00:55:49.040

I should go get a Patagonia vest, put that on.

00:55:49.040 --> 00:55:49.880

- There you go.

00:55:49.880 --> 00:55:50.700

- With a nice top. - We're gonna move out

00:55:50.700 --> 00:55:52.320

to the valley or Miami.

00:55:52.320 --> 00:55:54.280

Those are the two options, I think.

00:55:54.280 --> 00:55:56.720

- Yeah, oh, that sounds good.

00:55:56.720 --> 00:56:01.060

Yeah, so there's a couple of metrics that I track.

00:56:01.060 --> 00:56:04.520

LTV is not one yet,

00:56:04.520 --> 00:56:08.200

mostly because I've only had subscriptions

00:56:08.200 --> 00:56:09.040

for a year and a half.

00:56:09.040 --> 00:56:10.880

- Right, how could you know, yeah.

00:56:10.880 --> 00:56:12.960

- Yeah, so I feel like there's a number there,

00:56:12.960 --> 00:56:16.280

but I don't think it's accurate enough

00:56:16.280 --> 00:56:17.720

to really track at this point.

00:56:17.720 --> 00:56:20.840

So the metrics that I really look at

00:56:20.840 --> 00:56:24.040

are the monthly recurring revenues, so MMR,

00:56:24.040 --> 00:56:26.220

and ARR, annual recurring revenue,

00:56:26.220 --> 00:56:27.840

and then active subscribers.

00:56:27.840 --> 00:56:32.240

Those are the things that I'm actively looking at daily.

00:56:32.240 --> 00:56:33.760

- Okay, yeah, that makes sense.

00:56:33.760 --> 00:56:36.000

'Cause that's like a thing that's, you know,

00:56:36.000 --> 00:56:40.160

a difference with advertising a subscription versus,

00:56:40.160 --> 00:56:42.280

like I feel like I'm playing on easy mode

00:56:42.280 --> 00:56:45.600

in a lot of these, the little bit of advertising stuff

00:56:45.600 --> 00:56:47.440

that I mess with, because it's like,

00:56:47.440 --> 00:56:51.240

there is a literal, very clear fixed dollar amount

00:56:51.240 --> 00:56:53.940

that each customer is worth to me.

00:56:53.940 --> 00:56:55.720

And I can pay-- - Oh yeah, yeah.

00:56:55.720 --> 00:56:57.240

- Basically up to that number

00:56:57.240 --> 00:56:58.720

and I'm at least making money.

00:56:58.720 --> 00:57:00.240

- Have you done ads?

00:57:00.240 --> 00:57:04.080

- I just use the app store ads.

00:57:04.080 --> 00:57:05.900

- Oh, yeah, how's that go?

00:57:05.900 --> 00:57:09.480

- Okay, so I don't know.

00:57:09.480 --> 00:57:12.840

So I just described the situation of,

00:57:12.840 --> 00:57:14.840

oh, it's easy because I can just set,

00:57:14.840 --> 00:57:19.840

okay, my app is $9.99, so 15% off from Apple's cut

00:57:19.840 --> 00:57:24.800

and then a little bit 'cause I want some profit margin.

00:57:24.800 --> 00:57:27.920

So it's like I'm willing to pay $7 or something.

00:57:27.920 --> 00:57:29.240

I don't remember what I have it set at,

00:57:29.240 --> 00:57:30.800

but some amount and it's like,

00:57:30.800 --> 00:57:34.480

if I like make a sale,

00:57:34.480 --> 00:57:36.480

and that's how they charge for the app store.

00:57:36.480 --> 00:57:37.880

It's not like they click the link

00:57:37.880 --> 00:57:39.080

and then you have to get a conversion.

00:57:39.080 --> 00:57:41.640

It's literally, I'm paying for the ad

00:57:41.640 --> 00:57:43.540

if they download the app.

00:57:43.540 --> 00:57:45.080

And in my case, them downloading the app

00:57:45.080 --> 00:57:47.140

is they're paying for the app.

00:57:47.140 --> 00:57:49.160

- That actually makes a lot of sense for you, yeah.

00:57:49.160 --> 00:57:53.680

- The thing is, I've noticed that I will have

00:57:54.840 --> 00:58:03.360

big spikes in how many sales I get through ads whenever I have big sales in or big spikes

00:58:03.360 --> 00:58:05.340

in sales from other means.

00:58:05.340 --> 00:58:11.760

So like if I'm on a podcast or I'm featured on the app store or somebody writes about

00:58:11.760 --> 00:58:17.160

me in a blog or something, I'll also get a conspicuous spike in ad sales and I don't

00:58:17.160 --> 00:58:21.600

understand if it's I think what's happening is people search dark noise and then a dark

00:58:21.600 --> 00:58:27.360

noise ad shows. And so then they click the ad and it's like they were they were my customer

00:58:27.360 --> 00:58:34.400

already at that point. Yeah. But now I just gave Apple, you know, 60% of of my my sale.

00:58:34.400 --> 00:58:41.760

And so I don't know. I haven't done the work to figure out if that is accurate or if that's

00:58:41.760 --> 00:58:48.160

just this is my hunch, right? Based on. Yeah. Yeah. A sudden big bill from ads on the same

00:58:48.160 --> 00:58:52.080

days that I think I've earned a lot of sales on my own.

00:58:52.080 --> 00:58:55.560

But it certainly seems like there's that element to it.

00:58:55.560 --> 00:59:00.080

So it feels like an easy calculation, but I think I'm actually still overpaying.

00:59:00.080 --> 00:59:03.120

Like, I don't know if I should be smarter about how I do that or how you avoid that,

00:59:03.120 --> 00:59:05.960

or if you just can't avoid that problem.

00:59:05.960 --> 00:59:10.400

But you just have that on like all the time like that.

00:59:10.400 --> 00:59:10.840

Yeah.

00:59:10.840 --> 00:59:16.680

So there's like multiple versions of how the app store does their ads.

00:59:17.040 --> 00:59:19.520

But the like, I think the one I use is the basic one.

00:59:19.520 --> 00:59:20.360

Still, I think I messed.

00:59:20.360 --> 00:59:22.840

They have it a basic and advanced.

00:59:22.840 --> 00:59:25.080

But because of my situation being paid up front,

00:59:25.080 --> 00:59:29.480

having that really simple filter of like,

00:59:29.480 --> 00:59:32.600

you can just automatically bid me

00:59:32.600 --> 00:59:37.320

and you're going to do it based on, you know, likelihood

00:59:37.320 --> 00:59:39.800

that the person will click the ad because that makes Apple money.

00:59:39.800 --> 00:59:40.720

And then.

00:59:40.720 --> 00:59:44.480

And then that benefits me, that benefits Apple, like it's

00:59:44.560 --> 00:59:48.720

it kind of works out. But then there's those couple situations. Like I almost wish I could

00:59:48.720 --> 00:59:56.160

remove and maybe the advanced ones I could like if I could remove the keyword my actual app name,

00:59:56.160 --> 01:00:01.920

which funnily enough, I feel like most developers, that's their complaint is that they have to buy

01:00:01.920 --> 01:00:06.000

ads for their ad name so that competitors don't do the same.

01:00:06.000 --> 01:00:06.800

Yeah.

01:00:06.800 --> 01:00:10.080

But I almost wonder if it's like if they're searching for my ad name,

01:00:10.080 --> 01:00:12.000

I have a high intent customer right there.

01:00:12.000 --> 01:00:17.600

And that customer is worth way less than ad for that customer's worth way less to me

01:00:17.600 --> 01:00:21.600

than somebody else, because they're probably already coming for me.

01:00:21.600 --> 01:00:25.280

And are they really going to get distracted and click on somebody else?

01:00:25.280 --> 01:00:25.680

I don't know.

01:00:25.680 --> 01:00:26.240

Maybe they would.

01:00:26.240 --> 01:00:30.800

Like, I'm throwing a bunch of things out here with no actual research on this.

01:00:30.800 --> 01:00:34.960

So take none of this as, you know, tried and true advice here.

01:00:34.960 --> 01:00:39.760

But yeah, I mean, it takes a lot of like work to measure that stuff too.

01:00:39.760 --> 01:00:44.160

Like, yeah, like you kind of, you kind of like need infrastructure to do that.

01:00:44.160 --> 01:00:51.120

So that's, I, I forget, um, maybe it's the, uh, sub do you know the sub club podcast?

01:00:51.120 --> 01:00:51.600

Yes.

01:00:51.600 --> 01:00:53.200

Sub club is great.

01:00:53.200 --> 01:00:57.280

Uh, cause they actually know what they're talking about, um, around all these topics.

01:00:57.280 --> 01:00:58.080

Yeah.

01:00:58.080 --> 01:00:58.400

Yeah.

01:00:58.400 --> 01:01:03.440

I remember, I forget who the guest was, but he was saying like, oh yeah, like if you have like

01:01:03.440 --> 01:01:08.720

a small marketing budget and then like David Bernard, like stopped him and said, can you

01:01:08.720 --> 01:01:15.040

define small, please? Yeah. Like, um, and he's like, oh, like 20,000. And I was like,

01:01:15.040 --> 01:01:20.240

bro, that ain't small, right? Like, yeah, like, okay, maybe for like a bigger company. Sure.

01:01:20.240 --> 01:01:26.640

Yeah. Yeah. Um, cause, and he was like, yeah, for any developers, 20 grand to spend on ads is,

01:01:26.640 --> 01:01:33.840

that's a big ask right there. You know? It's such like, it's such a scary, even if you,

01:01:34.560 --> 01:01:40.880

if you figure out one of those magical funnel things where it's like, I put $1 in and I get $2

01:01:40.880 --> 01:01:45.200

out. Um, right. It's like, if you have a whole bunch of money that you're willing to lose,

01:01:45.200 --> 01:01:50.720

then sure. Pour $50,000 into that bucket and get a hundred thousand dollars out. But

01:01:50.720 --> 01:01:57.760

sure. If you don't have $50,000, uh, that you're willing to just throw away, if you did something

01:01:57.760 --> 01:02:03.440

wrong, it's like, that is really scary. Yeah. That's why I, yeah. And I think the podcast stuff

01:02:03.440 --> 01:02:09.920

is much better. I think another benefit of the podcast stuff, sponsorship, especially with like

01:02:09.920 --> 01:02:17.360

the podcast that I did sponsor was, I also felt like I've gotten so much value from those podcasts

01:02:17.360 --> 01:02:24.000

personally. I'm like, you know what, I'm happy to do this. Like I'm happy to sponsor this

01:02:24.000 --> 01:02:31.280

because I love these shows. And I've been listening for years. And it's like, this is great.

01:02:31.280 --> 01:02:35.600

you know, like, I feel like it's almost like a way of also giving back. It's not charity,

01:02:35.600 --> 01:02:39.760

I know that, but it's like, that's also like a factor with those things too.

01:02:39.760 --> 01:02:44.320

And I mean, it's kind of like, even though most of the time this isn't what it actually means,

01:02:44.320 --> 01:02:52.000

the term sponsor, right? Like, that's kind of the idea is like, in a way you're like,

01:02:52.000 --> 01:02:56.880

I want this to keep going and also I want to benefit too. And like, this benefits both of us.

01:02:58.400 --> 01:03:03.600

But yeah, there's a couple of shows I have on my radar in the same kind of vein where I'm like,

01:03:03.600 --> 01:03:11.200

you know, even if it doesn't work out, I just really like the people that run this and this

01:03:11.200 --> 01:03:18.240

show. And yeah, it's meant a lot to me. And so yeah, no, that's that's a good point. And that's

01:03:18.240 --> 01:03:24.080

a good reason to pick a show you like. And I feel like in your case with Sofa, especially,

01:03:24.640 --> 01:03:28.800

like your target market has to be not has to be I'm guessing is

01:03:28.800 --> 01:03:32.080

the exact type of people like Apple,

01:03:32.080 --> 01:03:37.200

Apple oriented productivity type people who are more likely to be listening

01:03:37.200 --> 01:03:40.680

to a daring fireball or connected or something like that

01:03:40.680 --> 01:03:46.080

are also more likely to be the type of people who want a dedicated,

01:03:46.080 --> 01:03:50.240

you know, rich Apple integration type app

01:03:50.240 --> 01:03:54.200

for tracking their movies and TV shows and podcasts. Yeah.

01:03:54.200 --> 01:04:01.680

And video games and board games video games and books and books. Yeah, I'm forgetting one

01:04:01.680 --> 01:04:05.220

Yeah, there might be another one in there. But yeah, there's there's a lot

01:04:05.220 --> 01:04:10.280

Yeah, I agree. I think yeah, it's it's a I think it's a good fit

01:04:10.280 --> 01:04:12.360

and

01:04:12.360 --> 01:04:15.600

I think like long-term it can definitely expand out and

01:04:15.600 --> 01:04:18.360

There can be ways to

01:04:18.360 --> 01:04:20.640

It's actually like a weirdly hard

01:04:20.640 --> 01:04:23.440

product to talk about because

01:04:23.440 --> 01:04:29.320

Because if you think I could go super specific and just talk about books, right?

01:04:29.320 --> 01:04:32.200

Or just talk about video games.

01:04:32.200 --> 01:04:33.900

Or I can go more broad, right?

01:04:33.900 --> 01:04:37.160

And say, "Oh, it helps you be more intentional with your downtime.

01:04:37.160 --> 01:04:38.720

And helps you organize your downtime."

01:04:38.720 --> 01:04:41.440

I love that phrasing, by the way.

01:04:41.440 --> 01:04:45.000

You say organizing your downtime, but the one I really like is the "be more intentional

01:04:45.000 --> 01:04:46.000

about your downtime."

01:04:46.000 --> 01:04:47.000

No, no.

01:04:47.000 --> 01:04:48.000

Yeah, you're right.

01:04:48.000 --> 01:04:51.480

That came out of writing the ad copy for the sponsors.

01:04:51.480 --> 01:04:52.480

Oh, interesting.

01:04:52.480 --> 01:04:58.940

So like to me, I've already gotten other benefits out of this where I wouldn't have sat down

01:04:58.940 --> 01:05:02.100

and wrote any of that stuff without this.

01:05:02.100 --> 01:05:06.420

So it made me think about the product in different ways.

01:05:06.420 --> 01:05:10.660

And I've always called it like a downtime organizer, which it is.

01:05:10.660 --> 01:05:14.380

But yeah, this phrase of like, it helps you be more intentional with your downtime because

01:05:14.380 --> 01:05:17.460

hey, however you want to use your downtime is cool, right?

01:05:17.460 --> 01:05:20.920

Like if you want to just go on YouTube and watch stuff, fine, right?

01:05:20.920 --> 01:05:24.160

If you want to go for a run, that's cool too.

01:05:24.160 --> 01:05:27.880

Like whatever, however you want to use your downtime is fine.

01:05:27.880 --> 01:05:30.360

But just be more intentional about it, right?

01:05:30.360 --> 01:05:33.800

Be intentional with like, "Yeah, I'm going to doom scroll for 20 minutes or an hour."

01:05:33.800 --> 01:05:34.960

Like that's fine.

01:05:34.960 --> 01:05:39.820

If that's what you need, like when we buy bags of Doritos here, like I eat the whole

01:05:39.820 --> 01:05:42.840

bag because it tastes really good.

01:05:42.840 --> 01:05:48.640

But I know in an hour it's going to be rough, you know?

01:05:48.640 --> 01:05:50.800

you made that you were intentional about it.

01:05:50.800 --> 01:05:52.320

- 100% intentional.

01:05:52.320 --> 01:05:54.600

I knew, like I'll say to my wife, I'm like,

01:05:54.600 --> 01:05:56.940

this is a bad idea, but I'm doing it, you know?

01:05:56.940 --> 01:05:58.280

- I feel like this is something,

01:05:58.280 --> 01:06:00.200

probably a lot of people listening to this,

01:06:00.200 --> 01:06:05.000

if they're also, you know, sort of indie, on the side,

01:06:05.000 --> 01:06:06.880

working on things type people.

01:06:06.880 --> 01:06:08.980

I know a lot of my friends are the same way,

01:06:08.980 --> 01:06:13.980

where it's like, we struggle with relaxing.

01:06:13.980 --> 01:06:18.080

It's not that we're always productive,

01:06:18.080 --> 01:06:21.640

It's that when we have time, like I know for me,

01:06:21.640 --> 01:06:25.620

when I'm in a rough spell with dark noise in particular,

01:06:25.620 --> 01:06:31.040

launch is easier because it's editing and doing this

01:06:31.040 --> 01:06:33.540

is like it pulls you through the process, right?

01:06:33.540 --> 01:06:34.920

Like I don't have a choice.

01:06:34.920 --> 01:06:36.540

I come out with a thing every other week

01:06:36.540 --> 01:06:37.500

and it pulls me through.

01:06:37.500 --> 01:06:40.240

But with dark noise, you have to show up,

01:06:40.240 --> 01:06:42.460

like you said earlier, and like do the thing.

01:06:42.460 --> 01:06:45.900

And sometimes I'm just like work depressed

01:06:45.900 --> 01:06:48.060

where I'm just like, I know I'm not gonna get anything

01:06:48.060 --> 01:06:51.580

done tonight, but I'm so frustrated that I haven't accomplished anything the last

01:06:51.580 --> 01:06:55.820

couple of days. I'll just open my laptop to will myself to do something and I'll

01:06:55.820 --> 01:07:00.140

just stare at it. And then the day will be over and I'm like, I should have

01:07:00.140 --> 01:07:05.740

played a game or watched an episode of whatever with my wife, because that's a

01:07:05.740 --> 01:07:10.340

thing that I enjoy and I'm not doing instead. I'm just making myself, you know,

01:07:10.340 --> 01:07:15.980

feel bad. Oh, it's so hard. And then you get into, and this is where something

01:07:15.980 --> 01:07:18.820

like Sofa really comes into play,

01:07:18.820 --> 01:07:21.980

where you are like, all right, I'm taking the tonight off.

01:07:21.980 --> 01:07:23.760

And then it feels so precious.

01:07:23.760 --> 01:07:26.500

Like anybody with kids will know this feeling too,

01:07:26.500 --> 01:07:28.640

of like, you have the night off

01:07:28.640 --> 01:07:30.840

'cause grandma has the kids and you're like, all right,

01:07:30.840 --> 01:07:33.400

every single thing we do has to be the best version

01:07:33.400 --> 01:07:35.060

that we've ever done of this thing.

01:07:35.060 --> 01:07:36.780

- All this pressure, yeah.

01:07:36.780 --> 01:07:38.380

- Yeah, you can't pick a restaurant

01:07:38.380 --> 01:07:39.900

and you're like trying to pick the best restaurant

01:07:39.900 --> 01:07:42.600

and then you spend an hour, you finally pick one,

01:07:42.600 --> 01:07:44.800

but you're not, neither person's satisfied with it.

01:07:44.800 --> 01:07:46.760

and then you call up and they're like,

01:07:46.760 --> 01:07:47.600

"Yeah, we don't have a table

01:07:47.600 --> 01:07:49.060

"'cause it's already seven o'clock."

01:07:49.060 --> 01:07:50.700

And you're like, "What did I do?"

01:07:50.700 --> 01:07:54.220

And having a list of,

01:07:54.220 --> 01:07:56.080

"Hey, these are some movies I wanna watch,

01:07:56.080 --> 01:07:57.940

"and I have two hours I can watch a movie,"

01:07:57.940 --> 01:07:59.920

and just pick one from that list.

01:07:59.920 --> 01:08:00.760

Huh. - Yeah.

01:08:00.760 --> 01:08:04.880

- It's like the most first world of problems to describe,

01:08:04.880 --> 01:08:08.040

but my goodness, does it make a big difference.

01:08:08.040 --> 01:08:09.240

- Yeah. - 'Cause then you actually

01:08:09.240 --> 01:08:12.720

do the thing that you wanted to with your downtime.

01:08:12.720 --> 01:08:16.880

Almost like when you explain it, it's like, that's it?

01:08:16.880 --> 01:08:18.080

It's like, that's the idea?

01:08:18.080 --> 01:08:19.440

It's like, yeah, that's it.

01:08:19.440 --> 01:08:21.040

It's pretty simple, you know?

01:08:21.040 --> 01:08:24.000

It's like, it's amazing how just keeping a list

01:08:24.000 --> 01:08:26.200

of something can be a great tool.

01:08:26.200 --> 01:08:30.000

- 'Cause watching a movie is so much better

01:08:30.000 --> 01:08:33.480

than scrolling Netflix for the same amount of time

01:08:33.480 --> 01:08:34.760

that you could have watched a movie.

01:08:34.760 --> 01:08:36.480

- Yeah, yeah.

01:08:36.480 --> 01:08:38.440

- Now Blockbuster, that's different.

01:08:38.440 --> 01:08:41.200

I would argue that the time I spent walking up

01:08:41.200 --> 01:08:43.200

down the aisles in Blockbuster back in the day.

01:08:43.200 --> 01:08:46.040

That was valuable, intentional time, right?

01:08:46.040 --> 01:08:49.360

- Dude, that's a great, that's a great like comparison.

01:08:49.360 --> 01:08:50.680

I never thought about that.

01:08:50.680 --> 01:08:54.080

But yeah, going to Blockbuster was, that was awesome.

01:08:54.080 --> 01:08:56.320

That'd be like Friday night, Saturday night,

01:08:56.320 --> 01:08:58.320

like yes, we're going to Blockbuster.

01:08:58.320 --> 01:08:59.160

Oh my God, yeah.

01:08:59.160 --> 01:09:00.400

- For one, you're wearing pants, right?

01:09:00.400 --> 01:09:02.260

You're not in your living room.

01:09:02.260 --> 01:09:05.240

- Wait, are you wearing pants right now?

01:09:05.240 --> 01:09:06.080

Yeah.

01:09:06.080 --> 01:09:07.040

- Right, yeah.

01:09:07.040 --> 01:09:08.920

The benefit of Zoom, right?

01:09:08.920 --> 01:09:11.320

I thought this was the no pants podcast.

01:09:11.320 --> 01:09:12.240

No, okay.

01:09:12.240 --> 01:09:13.080

Yeah.

01:09:13.080 --> 01:09:14.720

(laughing)

01:09:14.720 --> 01:09:18.420

No, this is not a Curtis Herbert's show.

01:09:18.420 --> 01:09:20.800

What was it called?

01:09:20.800 --> 01:09:22.000

What was the name of it?

01:09:22.000 --> 01:09:24.200

Yeah, I forget too, but I know what you're talking about.

01:09:24.200 --> 01:09:25.040

Wow, I'm struggling.

01:09:25.040 --> 01:09:27.000

But anyway, no, I am wearing pants,

01:09:27.000 --> 01:09:28.600

just so we're all clear here.

01:09:28.600 --> 01:09:29.440

Blockbuster.

01:09:29.440 --> 01:09:31.720

But yeah, Blockbuster, Blockbuster, good times.

01:09:31.720 --> 01:09:34.860

Man, I know I've said it like three times this episode,

01:09:34.860 --> 01:09:37.760

but you are really getting late night rambling, Charlie.

01:09:37.760 --> 01:09:38.820

Yeah, I like it.

01:09:38.820 --> 01:09:41.280

- I like it, make it weird man, you know?

01:09:41.280 --> 01:09:42.860

Life is short, just get weird with it.

01:09:42.860 --> 01:09:44.460

- It's good to have these every once in a while.

01:09:44.460 --> 01:09:45.900

- Yes, yes.

01:09:45.900 --> 01:09:49.180

- Yeah, okay, so podcast sponsorships, good.

01:09:49.180 --> 01:09:50.300

Good for lots of reasons.

01:09:50.300 --> 01:09:52.380

You feel like the Roy was good,

01:09:52.380 --> 01:09:55.260

the Ebitduh, dud, it's Ebits.

01:09:55.260 --> 01:10:00.060

- It was Ebitin all day, yeah.

01:10:00.060 --> 01:10:03.660

- No, I think that's the main thing.

01:10:03.660 --> 01:10:07.100

Are there other things that you do as far as

01:10:07.100 --> 01:10:13.460

marketing goes, I feel like sofa has a, like it has that presence and maybe

01:10:13.460 --> 01:10:17.280

this is brand marketing is kind of how it gets there, but it's like, yeah, in

01:10:17.280 --> 01:10:22.580

my head, it's sort of like, it is the app for this space that I think of when I

01:10:22.580 --> 01:10:24.300

think, oh, I want to track some new thing.

01:10:24.300 --> 01:10:26.300

It's like, that's where I go to like, think about it.

01:10:26.300 --> 01:10:29.740

Um, and of course your website is beautiful.

01:10:29.740 --> 01:10:30.580

Anybody who.

01:10:30.580 --> 01:10:31.900

Hey, thanks.

01:10:31.900 --> 01:10:36.900

Wants to make a, uh, like app, a website one, prepare yourself.

01:10:36.900 --> 01:10:38.660

You're not probably, if you're not a designer,

01:10:38.660 --> 01:10:41.380

you're probably not gonna pull off what you've done

01:10:41.380 --> 01:10:45.060

over probably a long period of time with SofaHQ.com,

01:10:45.060 --> 01:10:50.060

but it's just ripe with ideas you can steal.

01:10:50.060 --> 01:10:51.780

I'll just say that 'cause I know

01:10:51.780 --> 01:10:53.860

I've certainly stolen ideas from it.

01:10:53.860 --> 01:10:57.180

- Oh my God, I've never had an original idea in my life.

01:10:57.180 --> 01:10:59.260

Like everything is stolen, right?

01:10:59.260 --> 01:11:02.140

Like, you know, you've seen that video,

01:11:02.140 --> 01:11:03.580

Everything's a Remix, right?

01:11:03.580 --> 01:11:05.300

Like that's kind of a story.

01:11:05.300 --> 01:11:06.380

I mean, but it's so true.

01:11:06.380 --> 01:11:07.860

Like you just build on each other,

01:11:07.860 --> 01:11:10.060

even if you have no idea you're doing that, you know?

01:11:10.060 --> 01:11:11.140

So it's totally fine.

01:11:11.140 --> 01:11:12.740

Steal away, you're good.

01:11:12.740 --> 01:11:15.580

- Right, we're talking about generative AI now, right?

01:11:15.580 --> 01:11:16.900

- That's right, yeah.

01:11:16.900 --> 01:11:17.860

(both laughing)

01:11:17.860 --> 01:11:20.260

- Okay, I'm gonna stop that tangent

01:11:20.260 --> 01:11:22.260

before I start going down that one.

01:11:22.260 --> 01:11:26.180

- Ooh, that could be, yeah, that's quite a topic

01:11:26.180 --> 01:11:27.260

that we could go very deep on.

01:11:27.260 --> 01:11:29.980

- It is, well, the last episode was literally about that.

01:11:29.980 --> 01:11:30.820

- I just listened to that today.

01:11:30.820 --> 01:11:32.380

- Came out just the other day.

01:11:32.380 --> 01:11:33.640

Nice, nice.

01:11:33.640 --> 01:11:35.760

Yes, I told you I'm a fan of the show, man.

01:11:35.760 --> 01:11:37.480

It's a good show, I like it.

01:11:37.480 --> 01:11:40.160

- Okay, so before I wrap up,

01:11:40.160 --> 01:11:42.900

there's one other little thing I had in here,

01:11:42.900 --> 01:11:46.140

which is like, I guess this is related to marketing,

01:11:46.140 --> 01:11:48.600

so we'll just say this is part of that same topic.

01:11:48.600 --> 01:11:50.200

- Sure. - Do you find yourself

01:11:50.200 --> 01:11:55.400

counter-positioning to what the big players

01:11:55.400 --> 01:11:57.200

in each of these spaces are doing?

01:11:57.200 --> 01:11:59.420

'Cause you have movie tracking,

01:11:59.420 --> 01:12:02.240

and there's obviously IMDb or Letterboxd

01:12:02.240 --> 01:12:05.800

or something like that, or like Goodreads for books

01:12:05.800 --> 01:12:10.160

or something like that, or do you kind of treat it like,

01:12:10.160 --> 01:12:12.560

no, this is a totally separate thing from those,

01:12:12.560 --> 01:12:15.540

this is sort of an all-in-one place for all of your stuff?

01:12:15.540 --> 01:12:18.000

Like, I'm just curious how you approach that.

01:12:18.000 --> 01:12:19.480

- I don't want this to sound rude at all,

01:12:19.480 --> 01:12:22.520

I don't mean this to be rude in any way, shape, or form,

01:12:22.520 --> 01:12:25.320

but I really don't pay attention to those apps.

01:12:25.320 --> 01:12:30.880

The person that I have in mind

01:12:30.880 --> 01:12:33.920

and the person that I am kind of thinking

01:12:33.920 --> 01:12:38.520

that SOFA is really for is the person who is,

01:12:38.520 --> 01:12:41.080

they're already keeping these lists.

01:12:41.080 --> 01:12:45.400

They already do this, but they use Apple Notes, right?

01:12:45.400 --> 01:12:46.640

Or reminders.

01:12:46.640 --> 01:12:48.360

And it's like, hey, that's cool.

01:12:48.360 --> 01:12:51.360

That's cool you're doing that, but this is way better.

01:12:51.360 --> 01:12:54.320

This is so much better than that.

01:12:54.320 --> 01:12:58.800

And that's the person that I'm really focused on

01:12:58.800 --> 01:13:03.800

because I think the type of,

01:13:03.800 --> 01:13:09.660

when I think about the type of app that I think SoFi is,

01:13:09.660 --> 01:13:11.660

or I want it to be aspirationally,

01:13:11.660 --> 01:13:15.920

I think it's this weird mix between

01:13:15.920 --> 01:13:19.400

the kind of simplicity and experience

01:13:19.400 --> 01:13:21.300

of something like Apple Notes,

01:13:21.300 --> 01:13:25.280

but to have the power and the flexibility

01:13:25.280 --> 01:13:27.620

of something like a spreadsheet.

01:13:27.620 --> 01:13:30.340

And I love spreadsheets.

01:13:30.340 --> 01:13:32.540

Like for people who know spreadsheets,

01:13:32.540 --> 01:13:36.620

like they understand like why people love spreadsheets

01:13:36.620 --> 01:13:38.860

'cause they're infinitely flexible

01:13:38.860 --> 01:13:40.700

and you can kind of do anything in there.

01:13:40.700 --> 01:13:43.100

Like spreadsheets literally run the world.

01:13:43.100 --> 01:13:44.680

Like the world runs on spreadsheets.

01:13:44.680 --> 01:13:47.060

It's unbelievable. - Oh yeah.

01:13:47.060 --> 01:13:49.920

- But the experience of like editing those spreadsheets,

01:13:49.920 --> 01:13:51.740

like it kind of sucks, right?

01:13:51.740 --> 01:13:53.580

Like you gotta set everything up.

01:13:53.580 --> 01:13:55.180

It's like very tedious.

01:13:55.180 --> 01:13:57.820

So I'm trying to, I think there's this middle ground

01:13:57.820 --> 01:14:01.020

between like a great design

01:14:01.020 --> 01:14:03.220

and great experience of using the thing

01:14:03.220 --> 01:14:07.820

without it feeling like this big intimidating spreadsheet,

01:14:07.820 --> 01:14:09.940

but it also has a ton of flexibility.

01:14:09.940 --> 01:14:12.700

So that's really what I'm going for.

01:14:12.700 --> 01:14:14.340

And there's a lot of people today

01:14:14.340 --> 01:14:16.820

who track this stuff in spreadsheets too, right?

01:14:16.820 --> 01:14:20.300

Like, and like, you can go on YouTube,

01:14:20.300 --> 01:14:23.620

people make these amazing spreadsheets of like,

01:14:23.620 --> 01:14:24.860

here's all the books I read this year

01:14:24.860 --> 01:14:26.220

and it has all these stats and stuff.

01:14:26.220 --> 01:14:27.980

Like it's so, it's amazing.

01:14:27.980 --> 01:14:29.220

It's so incredible. - Oh, wow.

01:14:29.220 --> 01:14:30.260

- Yeah.

01:14:30.260 --> 01:14:34.300

So like I'm more interested in the person

01:14:34.300 --> 01:14:36.980

who is tracking stuff in Apple Notes today

01:14:36.980 --> 01:14:40.420

and the person who's like making a custom spreadsheet.

01:14:40.420 --> 01:14:43.220

Right, like I think those are really interesting

01:14:43.220 --> 01:14:47.100

and long-term I'd like to kind of bridge the gap there.

01:14:47.100 --> 01:14:50.880

And I think those other services, they're awesome, right?

01:14:50.880 --> 01:14:53.980

And they're for very specific people

01:14:53.980 --> 01:14:57.900

But I don't really see Soph as like competing with them.

01:14:57.900 --> 01:15:01.340

I see them as more of like maybe a companion

01:15:01.340 --> 01:15:03.380

in different ways, you know?

01:15:03.380 --> 01:15:04.460

- That makes sense.

01:15:04.460 --> 01:15:05.300

- Yeah.

01:15:05.300 --> 01:15:06.140

- I like that.

01:15:06.140 --> 01:15:06.960

- Yeah.

01:15:06.960 --> 01:15:10.980

- Cool, okay, well, before I wrap this up then,

01:15:10.980 --> 01:15:14.220

I'll ask you the question I ask everybody in the show,

01:15:14.220 --> 01:15:16.100

which is what is a person or people out there

01:15:16.100 --> 01:15:19.740

that have inspired you that you'd recommend others check out?

01:15:19.740 --> 01:15:21.220

- Yeah, I have a list.

01:15:21.220 --> 01:15:22.980

I have five people.

01:15:22.980 --> 01:15:29.760

five people. So first person is this, this guy's actually, he was the original

01:15:29.760 --> 01:15:36.040

developer on Sofa. So Oliver Pfeffer, he's just, he's an amazing, amazing iOS

01:15:36.040 --> 01:15:41.580

developer. He's still, we're great friends. And the amount that I have

01:15:41.580 --> 01:15:46.560

learned from him over the years is just, it's just incredible. The dude's super

01:15:46.560 --> 01:15:53.440

smart. And he's one of those people who like is not, he's not like, um, he's not

01:15:53.440 --> 01:15:57.320

very active on social media. Like you're not going to see all these posts from

01:15:57.320 --> 01:16:00.840

him and stuff like that. And there's so many people like that who were just

01:16:00.840 --> 01:16:04.440

killing it. They're just like so good at what they do, but they don't necessarily

01:16:04.440 --> 01:16:10.600

talk about what they do. Right? It's the Twitter's not real life meme on Twitter.

01:16:10.600 --> 01:16:16.440

Yeah, 100% right. Yeah. But I like, I just, I've learned so much from him.

01:16:16.440 --> 01:16:23.380

him and still continue to learn so much from him. So he's amazing. The next four people

01:16:23.380 --> 01:16:29.000

are the reason I want to highlight these people are because they are the people I learned

01:16:29.000 --> 01:16:38.040

the most from when I was first starting out with iOS development back in 2017. So Meng

01:16:38.040 --> 01:16:41.800

too of design and code.

01:16:41.800 --> 01:16:50.340

So he was like the perfect bridge for me because he's a designer and he knew how to explain

01:16:50.340 --> 01:16:52.760

development concepts to a designer.

01:16:52.760 --> 01:16:54.980

I'm like, "Oh yeah, thank you.

01:16:54.980 --> 01:16:57.080

Now I understand how delegation works, right?

01:16:57.080 --> 01:16:58.880

Like that makes total sense now, right?"

01:16:58.880 --> 01:17:03.640

Whereas before I'm like, "I have no idea what this even means."

01:17:03.640 --> 01:17:11.420

So his stuff is amazing, design and code, and he's still doing great work.

01:17:11.420 --> 01:17:16.580

Mark Mojkins, I don't know if I'm saying his name correctly, but he has a YouTube channel,

01:17:16.580 --> 01:17:17.580

Big Mountain Studio.

01:17:17.580 --> 01:17:23.780

I think he does a lot of like SwiftUI stuff now, but also someone who has good way of

01:17:23.780 --> 01:17:28.380

explaining things to beginners when it comes to iOS development.

01:17:28.380 --> 01:17:31.380

Because I'm sure there's a lot of people who listen to the show who are like, "I want to

01:17:31.380 --> 01:17:32.380

do this.

01:17:32.380 --> 01:17:39.260

iOS development. And these are great people to, to like learn from. They have tons of free content

01:17:39.260 --> 01:17:44.380

out there and stuff. It's amazing. Uh, Sean Allen has another one. He's another one on YouTube.

01:17:44.380 --> 01:17:53.660

Great stuff. First, very like literally when I was told that I could switch over to an iOS team

01:17:53.660 --> 01:18:00.620

in 20, well, this would have been the end of 2018. And, uh, I was like, this is amazing. I'm so

01:18:00.620 --> 01:18:06.940

excited I need to figure out what any of it is. I downloaded Xcode, went to BreadCo, which is

01:18:06.940 --> 01:18:13.900

Panera, but St. Louis here. And, uh, it's called, long story, anyway, the very first thing I watched

01:18:13.900 --> 01:18:17.820

was the Sean Allen video. And I don't know why, but it was, it was about whether you should have,

01:18:17.820 --> 01:18:23.660

it was storyboards versus, uh, oh yeah. Like, uh, like developing kit. What is the word?

01:18:23.660 --> 01:18:30.060

I didn't know what storyboards were or what UI kit was. Well, I probably knew what UI kit was

01:18:30.060 --> 01:18:35.500

at that point. But like, that was the level of basicness that I had. And that video, like,

01:18:35.500 --> 01:18:41.260

it sounds silly, but it's like, it established that this is a debate in the world. And like,

01:18:41.260 --> 01:18:45.740

that it was so helpful. So yeah, also a hard second on Sean Allen there.

01:18:45.740 --> 01:18:50.060

Yeah, yeah, great stuff. And the last one is, I mean, you've heard this one a million times,

01:18:50.060 --> 01:18:55.260

but like Paul Hudson, just the number of times his site still comes out when like I search

01:18:55.260 --> 01:19:04.220

Swiss stuff is just like wild. Yeah, just another, he just, he knows how to explain stuff to people.

01:19:04.220 --> 01:19:04.460

Right.

01:19:04.460 --> 01:19:09.100

And yeah. So, I'm just so thankful to all these people because

01:19:09.100 --> 01:19:15.500

I, you know, SoFa wouldn't exist without them, to be honest. So, very, very, very thankful for that.

01:19:15.500 --> 01:19:24.460

Yeah. And you're contributing to that sort of broad ecosystem of things, you know, learning,

01:19:24.460 --> 01:19:31.100

watching people work. Like you said, Paul Hudson, I feel like his live streams that he does

01:19:31.100 --> 01:19:32.700

are... Yes.

01:19:32.700 --> 01:19:39.340

That's the closest I've ever gotten to... The first job I had with iOS, we did pairing all

01:19:39.340 --> 01:19:43.340

the time. So I got to literally just sit with somebody who actually knew what they were doing

01:19:43.340 --> 01:19:45.100

and like... That's awesome.

01:19:45.100 --> 01:19:49.980

Watch how they moved the cursor around. You know what I mean? It's those little things that you

01:19:49.980 --> 01:19:53.640

You just, books don't teach you that.

01:19:53.640 --> 01:19:55.560

And even most tutorials that are trying

01:19:55.560 --> 01:19:56.680

to teach you about concepts,

01:19:56.680 --> 01:19:57.720

that's not what they're focused on

01:19:57.720 --> 01:19:59.560

because like, why would they be?

01:19:59.560 --> 01:20:01.360

But Paul Hudson's live streams,

01:20:01.360 --> 01:20:03.440

and I know other people do these too,

01:20:03.440 --> 01:20:07.180

surprisingly amazing because you're like,

01:20:07.180 --> 01:20:08.540

what did he just do?

01:20:08.540 --> 01:20:09.880

And he's like fumble, you know,

01:20:09.880 --> 01:20:11.080

he had a typo or something

01:20:11.080 --> 01:20:12.200

and then he fixed it the certain way

01:20:12.200 --> 01:20:13.320

and you're like, whoa.

01:20:13.320 --> 01:20:17.840

That kind of stuff I feel like is super valuable too.

01:20:17.840 --> 01:20:18.980

- Yeah, learning through video.

01:20:18.980 --> 01:20:23.620

like you're hitting on it, like so many articles

01:20:23.620 --> 01:20:27.600

will either, you know, maybe inadvertently

01:20:27.600 --> 01:20:30.800

or do it on purpose, make assumptions that,

01:20:30.800 --> 01:20:33.040

I don't need to say this thing 'cause this person will know.

01:20:33.040 --> 01:20:33.880

- Yeah.

01:20:33.880 --> 01:20:35.900

- And then you go, I feel like I'm missing something here.

01:20:35.900 --> 01:20:37.080

I don't really get it.

01:20:37.080 --> 01:20:38.820

But when you have to watch someone do a video,

01:20:38.820 --> 01:20:41.380

it's harder for them to just like skip over it.

01:20:41.380 --> 01:20:42.660

Like they have to do it.

01:20:42.660 --> 01:20:44.020

So the video stuff is great.

01:20:44.020 --> 01:20:46.820

- Right, well, and it's a delicate balance, right?

01:20:46.820 --> 01:20:49.540

because it's like when you do know those things,

01:20:49.540 --> 01:20:51.860

it's infuriating sitting through a video

01:20:51.860 --> 01:20:53.460

of somebody doing that thing.

01:20:53.460 --> 01:20:54.780

But then when you don't,

01:20:54.780 --> 01:20:58.500

so it's like Apple, like WWDC videos are,

01:20:58.500 --> 01:21:01.660

I feel like the example of video where it's like,

01:21:01.660 --> 01:21:03.340

even when they're typing code,

01:21:03.340 --> 01:21:07.500

like that is so rehearsed to the point of extremism

01:21:07.500 --> 01:21:09.380

that you're not gonna get any of those things.

01:21:09.380 --> 01:21:11.820

But you also wouldn't want it in that context.

01:21:11.820 --> 01:21:12.640

- Yeah.

01:21:12.640 --> 01:21:15.940

Do you wanna go another hour on Apple's documentation?

01:21:15.940 --> 01:21:23.540

Oh my goodness. I think what you meant was a hacking with swift.com. It's great. It's

01:21:23.540 --> 01:21:31.020

a wonderful documentation. Incredibly well done. Yeah, I have. Yeah. Weird thoughts about

01:21:31.020 --> 01:21:37.020

that. Coming. I came from the Microsoft world and I used to complain about, you know, MSDN

01:21:37.020 --> 01:21:41.640

and their, their documentation and coming over to Apple world. The very first thing

01:21:41.640 --> 01:21:50.200

was, "Holy cow, all of the bloggers and third party people in this space are amazing."

01:21:50.200 --> 01:21:56.760

Like, I've never... You go to Hacking with Swift and at the top it says, "This was updated...

01:21:56.760 --> 01:22:01.400

Last updated two months ago." And you're like, "Oh my gosh, they update their blog posts? What

01:22:01.400 --> 01:22:07.480

is that?" I never experienced that before. But then I think in part, the reason why maybe is

01:22:07.480 --> 01:22:13.560

there's a huge gap when it comes to Apple's documentation itself, especially if you're

01:22:13.560 --> 01:22:20.680

doing the audio APIs or some of these older, maybe less loved areas. Oh, that's a good point.

01:22:20.680 --> 01:22:21.480

Oh, man.

01:22:21.480 --> 01:22:27.720

I feel like you're sort of digging through history with Apple Docs a lot of times because

01:22:27.720 --> 01:22:33.320

you open up a page and you're like, "Oh, this is from this era because it's a totally different

01:22:33.320 --> 01:22:39.240

design and it looks super weird and you're like this one will actually tell me stuff but

01:22:39.240 --> 01:22:46.520

most of it will be out of date and that's kind of the the balancing act so yeah oh my yeah

01:22:46.520 --> 01:22:53.960

i'm like i'm trying to resist temptation here ollie a couple years ago i remember i i said

01:22:53.960 --> 01:23:00.200

something like off the cuff like oh yeah i did check like uh crash reports in uh app store connect

01:23:00.840 --> 01:23:04.760

He's like, "Why? Why are you doing that? You could do it in Xcode." I was like, "Oh,

01:23:04.760 --> 01:23:10.360

hell." And he showed me. I'm like, "Well, how was I going to find that?" Right? Like,

01:23:10.360 --> 01:23:16.520

how was I going to know to go dig into this menu and find the organize, you know, window?

01:23:16.520 --> 01:23:22.120

And then, "Oh, that's where I get my crash reports." It's like, "What?" It just, yeah.

01:23:22.120 --> 01:23:25.000

There's just like so many. And it's very big, right? Which is fine.

01:23:25.000 --> 01:23:27.560

Yeah. It's huge. And old, you know, in terms of...

01:23:27.560 --> 01:23:29.800

- And old, yeah, totally, yeah.

01:23:29.800 --> 01:23:33.160

But there is the education stuff

01:23:33.160 --> 01:23:35.160

or just general documentation is,

01:23:35.160 --> 01:23:36.920

it's a little rough for sure.

01:23:36.920 --> 01:23:40.680

- We have a gluttony of options of really high quality

01:23:40.680 --> 01:23:44.080

and polished stuff from NotApple.

01:23:44.080 --> 01:23:45.040

So, you know.

01:23:45.040 --> 01:23:46.320

- Yeah, agreed.

01:23:46.320 --> 01:23:47.680

- Win some, you lose some.

01:23:47.680 --> 01:23:50.640

All right, well, I will actually wrap this up.

01:23:50.640 --> 01:23:53.800

Thank you for you joining the show

01:23:53.800 --> 01:23:56.560

and for anybody listening who's listened to me

01:23:56.560 --> 01:24:02.160

ramble through this this whole way. Selfishly, this has been one of these

01:24:02.160 --> 01:24:05.860

episodes that I just really enjoy because I have a couple notes even for

01:24:05.860 --> 01:24:10.360

myself of like, ooh, I should try that after after I get off this call. So

01:24:10.360 --> 01:24:16.160

yeah, I I really appreciate you coming on and this was loads of fun. Dude.

01:24:16.160 --> 01:24:20.460

Thanks for having me that like I'm not kidding. Like I'm genuinely honored to

01:24:20.460 --> 01:24:25.260

be on this. I've been listening to this podcast since you first started it.

01:24:25.260 --> 01:24:34.260

I love it. Like it's super well done and what you've put together here, I would say pretty quickly.

01:24:34.260 --> 01:24:41.260

Like it has not been a long time that you've been doing this. And super high quality, great conversations.

01:24:41.260 --> 01:24:47.260

And being a host on something is hard. It's really hard. And I think you do a great job.

01:24:47.260 --> 01:24:51.260

So I thank you for continuing to do this and thanks for having me on.

01:24:51.260 --> 01:24:55.340

I think the only hard part is convincing smart people

01:24:55.340 --> 01:24:58.080

to come on and then I just get to like poke

01:24:58.080 --> 01:25:00.880

and let all the smart stuff come out.

01:25:00.880 --> 01:25:04.680

So getting somebody like you is the only reason

01:25:04.680 --> 01:25:06.200

this whole thing works, so thank you.

01:25:06.200 --> 01:25:08.600

- Well, I hope I don't lose you subscribers.

01:25:08.600 --> 01:25:11.760

Hopefully the numbers don't go down.

01:25:11.760 --> 01:25:13.240

As long as they stay even for you.

01:25:13.240 --> 01:25:16.840

- The jury's out on what your Roy will be, but we'll see.

01:25:16.840 --> 01:25:18.560

- Yeah, you should do that.

01:25:18.560 --> 01:25:24.760

You should post everyone's Roy at the end of just shame people, you know, be perfect.

01:25:24.760 --> 01:25:29.840

Brilliant. Yeah. All right. Well, I'll let you go, but seriously, thanks again. This

01:25:29.840 --> 01:25:36.080

is this is so much fun. Thank you. Have a good one.

01:25:36.080 --> 01:25:40.800

Thanks for listening. This episode was edited by Jonathan Ruiz. If you'd like to discuss

01:25:40.800 --> 01:25:45.920

the show, you can find me on Twitter at underscore Chuckie C or tweet the show directly at Launched

01:25:45.920 --> 01:25:51.040

I'd really appreciate a rating or review in your podcast app of choice.

01:25:51.040 --> 01:25:54.920

And you can find show notes and more at LaunchedFM.com

01:25:54.920 --> 01:26:14.600

*Upbeat Music*