54: Sofa - Shawn Hickman
Transcript
Autogenerated by MacWhisper
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Welcome to Launched. I'm Charlie Chapman, and today I'm excited to bring you the developer
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behind the downtime organizer, Sofa, Sean Hickman.
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Sean, welcome to the show.
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Thank you for having me, Charlie.
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Very happy to be here.
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Very honored to be here, actually.
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Oh, wow.
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Thank you.
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Yeah.
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It's kind of funny.
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Normally, you know, this is an opportunity to see somebody for the first time or maybe
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I've seen their face on Twitter or something like that.
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But because of the stuff you do on YouTube that we'll get to later, I feel like I'm familiar
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with your office layout.
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Like I know where you're at and positioned to your space in a way that I don't normally
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already have sort of pre-baked in my mind.
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- Yeah, I'm always, I like ran out the office a little bit.
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I feel like I need a plant in the back somewhere.
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People on YouTube have plants,
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and every time I see one I go,
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oh, that's a good looking plant, it's nice.
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- And you need two contrasting like LED lights,
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like a pink and a blue or a green and an orange
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or something, right?
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- That's how you know you're like a tech YouTuber.
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- Yeah, that's true.
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- Right, you have some kind of RGB light,
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that kind of stuff, 100%.
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- Really shallow depth of field.
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- Yeah, blur out the background.
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You don't even wanna see the background at all, just blur.
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- The perfect podcast content is when you talk about stuff
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that nobody listening can see.
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- Yeah.
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- Since you can see it, I will point out here,
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I've got a couple green plants here,
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literally got those for Christmas,
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took them out of the box and put them there
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so that I don't have a pile of boxes in our house.
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You know how you do with Christmas stuff.
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And that's the extent of it.
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So not super organized over here yet,
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but there is some green showing.
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Your plant game is way better than mine.
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- Well, they exist, so I guess I have that.
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- So, props to you, yeah.
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- All right, well, before we get into Sofa
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and your YouTube channel eventually
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and all the stuff you do,
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I wanna give everyone an introduction to who you are,
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other than the lack of your plant background.
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So, the three questions I always ask everybody
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to kick things off here is, where are you from?
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Do you have a formal education related to what you do?
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and then we can talk about your career leading up to SOFA.
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- Sure, so I am from suburbs outside of Philly,
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specifically a township called Delco or Delaware County.
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That's why my voice sounds like this,
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which, you know, that'll probably come up.
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It comes up a lot with people who are not from the area
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and even from the area.
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- Yeah, I wanna interject,
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'cause you said this before we started recording.
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You said, "I'm from a specific suburb,"
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and that's where the accent comes from.
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So this is like, it's not a Philly thing.
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It's a specific area, or well, outside of Philadelphia?
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- Yeah, so from what I understand,
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at some point there was like a large migration
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of people from South Philly into the suburbs,
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and a lot of them made up what is now Delaware County.
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- Oh.
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- And you say, "Oh, Delaware County, it's in Delaware."
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and you go, no, it's in Pennsylvania.
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So, yeah.
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And it's called Delco for short,
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and it's actually been made fun of on SNL and stuff.
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It's kind of made its way into pop culture a little bit.
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- Interesting.
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- Yeah, but we're oddly known for the way we pronounce words
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and stuff like that, so, yeah.
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- You're holding on to the regional accent.
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I feel like most of those are waning away in America.
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- I'm representing Delco today, yeah, 100%.
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Yeah, yeah, there you go.
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Okay, so Delco.
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And then the next thing would be like formal education.
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- Yeah, so formal education.
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So I went to college for graphic design.
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So I'm professionally a designer.
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And that was back in 2007
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when I graduated graphic design.
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And that was like advertising focused.
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You know, people would say,
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"Oh, what do you do with graphic design?"
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And I would always be like,
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"Oh, I make like CD covers," right?
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Which is, you know, hilarious now.
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When I graduated, that's the year that the iPhone came out,
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the first iPhone, and I was like,
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oh, like, I wanna do that.
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But I had no idea what that even was.
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I just wanted to do it.
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- You wanted to make CoverFlow images, right?
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(laughing)
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- Yeah, I wanna make all the album artwork for CoverFlow,
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yeah, you know, formerly trained as a graphic designer
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and then over time got into software, UX, UI,
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all that kind of stuff,
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and you know, eventually writing, writing apps.
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Yeah, so after, so career leading up to this,
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so school, I did an internship at the end of,
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like towards the end of my schooling,
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and it was with like an advertising thing,
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we were making, they made like credit card mailers.
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- Ooh, that sounds exciting and fulfilling.
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- And I remember just feeling so much regret,
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I was like, what did I choose for my career?
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Like, is this what I'm going to be doing forever?
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Like, I was just like, I can't do this.
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My first, my first job out of college or actually internship was
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an insurance claims processing.
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So, well, there you go.
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Similar level of excitement and fulfillment.
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I'm surprised you're not still doing it.
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Isn't it so much fun?
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Yeah.
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Well, you know, you can only handle so much of the heat, right?
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Uh, it's, it's, it's a really intense area, you know?
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Yeah.
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If you can't, if you can't handle the game, you got to get out, you
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know, that's what it is.
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Yeah.
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Right.
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Yeah.
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(laughing)
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Like I said, like the, you know,
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the iPhone was announced towards the end.
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So then I started trying to get mobile design jobs.
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I was like, oh, I can, I'll do mobile design.
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But everywhere would say, well, you need like four
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to five years of experience designing for mobile.
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And then I would say, well, the iPhone just came out.
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Like, how is that even possible?
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Like, how would anyone have that experience?
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Unless you were designing for like Blackberry or something.
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- Yeah, Windows Mobile, you weren't all over that.
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- Ah, yeah, that's right.
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- 'Cause it had like the start menu
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at the bottom and everything.
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- Yeah, yeah. - Like that, yeah.
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I did have a Palm Trio back in the day too.
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So, which I liked quite a bit.
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And now I work as a design manager
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at a design firm in Philly called Think Company.
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So, I've been there for the past eight years.
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- Nice, okay.
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And how, like, were you doing indie stuff
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on the side this whole time?
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Or was Sofa kind of your first play in that space?
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Sofa has like a longer story than people probably know.
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So when I was at QVC,
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You should do a podcast about that.
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I should do.
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Do you know anyone I could do that?
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I'll ask around.
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Okay.
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Uh, yeah, I gotta find someone.
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Um, so, uh, at QVC, I met two, two coworkers.
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Uh, one was, uh, uh, they were both developers.
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One was, uh, iOS, one was a web developer.
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Hit it off and we actually, you know, got together and made
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the first version of Sofa.
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This was back in 2015.
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Okay.
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And the very first version was like only movies, like you could only add movies to it.
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And it was very discovery focused.
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So, we would like curate these lists of movies that you could, you know, watch and then like
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you could add them to a list if you want to watch them later.
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Was the whole database, like, did you enter everything in or were you using something like,
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was it the movie database?
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Yeah.
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So, the movie, yeah, the movie database was our, you know, main data source.
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And then we built just like a little CMS and our own little like API layer over that
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to power the like curated list that we put together. So that was 2015. And then, you know,
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life got busy for everybody. I'm still very good friends with both of those guys. But I wanted to
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keep going with it. Like I had more ideas and I was like, "Oh, I think there's something here."
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I said, "All right, well, I'll figure it out. Like I'll learn iOS development and
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build an app, right? Like, how hard could it be? Right? Famous last words. It was very hard.
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And in 2017, I launched like, Sofa 2.0, which was like, completely different app from the original
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and very, very simple. Like, you know, it was like a baby app at first.
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Was it more simple than the 1.0 version?
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Oh, yeah.
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Yeah.
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Oh, interesting. Okay.
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Yeah, it was literally just like, you can make lists and then you can put either movies or TV
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shows into those lists. That's it. Like it was, and it was almost like a to-do list. You could
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like check stuff off. I like reached out to someone in the press to like, "Hey, would you
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like to write a review about this?" And they very kindly said, "Your app's maybe a little too basic
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at this point. Maybe reach out when it's, you know, when it's a little more fleshed out." And
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I was like, "That was a very nice way to say no."
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Yeah.
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Yeah. And ever since 2017, just been iterating on it ever since.
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Wow. So, was the first version, like, let's see, 2017, was it paid up front or did you have
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subscriptions at that point already?
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No. So, subscriptions, I only recently introduced in July of 2021. So, originally, it was just free.
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Because to be honest, I was like, "This is not good enough for anyone to pay for."
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So after a little bit, I actually did change it to a paid app. So it was then $4.99. I think I
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made like a hundred bucks or something over a couple months. What was your aspiration?
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Were you thinking this will eventually be something that I'll make paid before you switch
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it to paid? Yeah.
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Okay. So the idea was I'll build this up to something at some point.
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Yeah. I've always wanted it to be a full-time business and all that stuff. And it's moving
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towards that direction, which is great, but it's I've obviously like I had a very meandering
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journey on the way there. Man, that's fascinating. Okay, so trying to think so this is it's been
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around for a while, but I feel like what you're describing and what I think of as SOFA, or at
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least when it came on my radar, very different thing. So like, I guess just kind of walk us
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through that journey to get up to there, like subscription or like business model changes,
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but also just how you added on to it in terms of finding areas of value from people.
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Yeah. So, first released in 2017, Sofa 2.0 was free. And then I forget when I changed it to a
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paid app when it was $4.99, maybe like a year later or something like that. And at that point,
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I'd add it. You can add like podcasts to it. You can add books to it. So, there was more things
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there. And where was that coming from? Was that like you had sort of a road map in your head or
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these are things you found yourself wanting or were you getting feedback from people and that
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was sort of driving what features you added? Back in December of 2022 I released uh I'm going to be
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jumping all over the place Charlie. Oh yeah. Just FYI. Yeah uh so in uh last December of 2022 I
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I released Sofa 3.4 and I was like, there's features in that version that I
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have been wanting since 2017, right?
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Like you can have shared lists with like your spouse or your friend or something.
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Right.
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And right now it's like, it's a beta feature.
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Uh, cause there's, there's some iOS 16 quirkiness to, uh, iron out there.
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There's that there's shortcut support.
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Like there's, there's a couple of things that I feel like it's at a point where
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it, the foundation is there and now I can really start iterating on like the core product
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in new ways.
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- Oh, interesting. So, it's almost like the sort of vision you have in your head
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is really only recently fully realized and now you're at that point of like,
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how do you build on top of that?
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- Yeah, that's how I feel about it. You know, a lot of stuff is, you know, you go down some
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directions and you're like, "Oh, that didn't work." Feedback from people, I would, you know,
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people, co-workers and stuff who would use it, who were very generous with their time.
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But I remember when I was doing the paid app, it was $4.99, and I was telling my uncle about it.
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He's like, "Oh, that sounds really cool." Like, I was just explaining the app.
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And I literally watched him go to the app store and he's like, "$4.99?" He's like, "I don't pay
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for apps. I was like, bro, are you serious? Oh, I've run into this a lot. You're my uncle.
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What the hell? Yeah. So, um, and I was like, wow, if I can't get my uncle to pay for this, like,
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what shot do I have here? So that's when, um, I actually then made the app free again,
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all over the place. Right. And actually, uh, so in 2020, I, I added themes, like custom themes
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and stuff like that. And I started selling themes individually, thinking like, "Oh, okay,
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like maybe I make a bunch of different themes. They're really, really nice or just like quirky
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in different ways." People will buy them and they'll be like a dollar or two dollars or
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something like that. And that with enough volume, that would be, that would be okay.
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Like the, like filters or something for camera apps.
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I've heard you talk about the, almost like the hesitancy of like charging for stuff. And
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When I look back, I'm like, "Oh, I think I was just scared to do subscription and I should have
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done it." You know? Like, that was the obvious decision that I was just like afraid to do.
00:13:37.760 --> 00:13:42.160
And I was like, "Well, I'll try this other thing first and then, you know, and then I'll change it
00:13:42.160 --> 00:13:50.160
if it doesn't work." So, yeah. And then in 2021, July of 2021, Sofa3.0 came out with the subscription
00:13:50.160 --> 00:13:54.880
to Super Sofa, which is like the pro version. - Which is a fantastic name, by the way.
00:13:54.880 --> 00:13:56.020
- Yeah, thanks man.
00:13:56.020 --> 00:13:58.520
- I feel like it's hard to come up with a,
00:13:58.520 --> 00:14:01.720
like I went through this a lot 'cause I was like,
00:14:01.720 --> 00:14:04.760
I don't wanna just slap pro at the end or plus at the end
00:14:04.760 --> 00:14:06.040
because that's what everybody does.
00:14:06.040 --> 00:14:07.560
But what I realized is like,
00:14:07.560 --> 00:14:09.640
it's really hard to come up with a cutesy name
00:14:09.640 --> 00:14:13.080
that's also very clear and obvious
00:14:13.080 --> 00:14:14.720
that this is a pro version of it.
00:14:14.720 --> 00:14:18.620
But super is almost, it has the same connotation,
00:14:18.620 --> 00:14:20.340
but it works so well with sofa
00:14:20.340 --> 00:14:23.840
that I feel like you kind of pulled it off
00:14:23.840 --> 00:14:27.040
having a sort of cutesy unique name that's also clear.
00:14:27.040 --> 00:14:28.400
- Yeah, well, that's good to hear.
00:14:28.400 --> 00:14:30.920
Sometimes I wonder if like some of it is too cute.
00:14:30.920 --> 00:14:33.180
It's like the first time you go to Starbucks
00:14:33.180 --> 00:14:34.680
and you say, "Oh, can I get a large coffee?"
00:14:34.680 --> 00:14:36.320
And they go, "You want a venti?"
00:14:36.320 --> 00:14:39.320
And you go, "I don't know, is that a large?
00:14:39.320 --> 00:14:40.160
"I'll take that."
00:14:40.160 --> 00:14:42.400
- You just kind of roll your eyes like, "Ugh."
00:14:42.400 --> 00:14:43.440
- Yeah, you're like, you have to like
00:14:43.440 --> 00:14:44.880
know the language, right?
00:14:44.880 --> 00:14:48.440
So yeah, it's like a fine line between that stuff.
00:14:48.440 --> 00:14:49.560
- Yeah, and it is tricky.
00:14:49.560 --> 00:14:52.080
And like, I feel like there's a reason everybody,
00:14:52.080 --> 00:14:55.040
- It's kind of like all the TV subscription apps
00:14:55.040 --> 00:14:56.320
being plus now at the end.
00:14:56.320 --> 00:14:57.600
It's like-- - Everything's plus.
00:14:57.600 --> 00:14:59.820
- It's easy to make fun of it, but also,
00:14:59.820 --> 00:15:03.400
it's a real, like, when you're in the position
00:15:03.400 --> 00:15:05.200
of naming something or marketing something,
00:15:05.200 --> 00:15:08.640
and you go, oh, there's a very, very small number
00:15:08.640 --> 00:15:10.160
of characters thing I can slap on
00:15:10.160 --> 00:15:12.640
that is immediately understood by everybody.
00:15:12.640 --> 00:15:16.320
Like, that's a golden goose that's really hard to replace.
00:15:16.320 --> 00:15:17.760
- 100%, yeah.
00:15:17.760 --> 00:15:21.960
And if I was doing the Super Sofa stuff today, like net new,
00:15:21.960 --> 00:15:23.640
I may call it sofa plus, right?
00:15:23.640 --> 00:15:26.200
Like, you know, just to lean into that more.
00:15:26.200 --> 00:15:27.040
- Yeah.
00:15:27.040 --> 00:15:30.040
- But yeah, super sofa I think is, it's fun.
00:15:30.040 --> 00:15:31.720
- It's fun to say for sure.
00:15:31.720 --> 00:15:34.240
- Yeah, that's the point of the app too.
00:15:34.240 --> 00:15:37.120
Sometimes I think like it's to be fun, right?
00:15:37.120 --> 00:15:38.760
But sometimes I think like, oh, I should come up
00:15:38.760 --> 00:15:41.200
with like an even better version
00:15:41.200 --> 00:15:43.120
that is like super duper sofa.
00:15:43.120 --> 00:15:43.960
- Hmm.
00:15:43.960 --> 00:15:46.000
- You know, but then that just gets like really stupid.
00:15:46.000 --> 00:15:47.600
So I probably won't do that.
00:15:47.600 --> 00:15:49.320
- So you've mentioned a couple of times getting feedback
00:15:49.320 --> 00:15:50.480
from people and like.
00:15:50.480 --> 00:15:51.320
- Yeah.
00:15:51.320 --> 00:15:57.160
at your suite of things that you have now, I feel like, like, I know you have a discord and
00:15:57.160 --> 00:16:02.840
there's a community, a whole community page in your website. And it's kind of like a concept
00:16:02.840 --> 00:16:08.200
that you seem to really be leaning into, but I'm assuming you didn't have that, uh, whenever you
00:16:08.200 --> 00:16:12.760
had an app that was, you know, just one list that you could add to. So like, how did, what was sort
00:16:12.760 --> 00:16:16.760
of the journey to get to where you are now? And why do you have so much stuff around that?
00:16:16.760 --> 00:16:22.120
Dude, community stuff is hard. Like, I don't even know how to explain this, but I'm not like,
00:16:22.120 --> 00:16:29.240
I'm not good at participating in communities. I'm good at lurking in communities.
00:16:29.240 --> 00:16:34.200
Even like on Twitter, or, you know, like I'm on Massadown now, like we all are.
00:16:34.200 --> 00:16:39.800
My natural reaction is to not say anything and not post ever. It's just to like,
00:16:39.800 --> 00:16:44.280
watch other people, right? And just kind of like absorb it. So, it actually takes a lot of
00:16:45.000 --> 00:16:52.280
effort and energy to even write anything on these platforms. But
00:16:52.280 --> 00:17:03.000
there's like things where I've been inspired by certain products that have just done it well,
00:17:03.000 --> 00:17:08.120
and maybe it's just like kinda luck how it happens, but like the App Obsidian,
00:17:08.120 --> 00:17:13.160
like their Discord community is, and even their forums are just wild.
00:17:13.160 --> 00:17:13.720
Yeah.
00:17:13.720 --> 00:17:21.560
So good. Just so much great information. People are just, they just like are obsessed with Obsidian.
00:17:21.560 --> 00:17:24.280
It's definitely one of those cult type projects.
00:17:24.280 --> 00:17:24.600
100%.
00:17:24.600 --> 00:17:25.880
Or Notion is similar.
00:17:25.880 --> 00:17:28.600
Notion, yeah, yeah, for sure.
00:17:28.600 --> 00:17:31.560
I almost said Rome and then I realized I'm just listing all of the...
00:17:31.560 --> 00:17:34.200
The PKM stuff.
00:17:34.200 --> 00:17:36.360
Yeah, yeah. All the, what is that?
00:17:36.360 --> 00:17:38.920
PKM, Personal Knowledge Management.
00:17:38.920 --> 00:17:39.480
Oh, there you go.
00:17:39.480 --> 00:17:42.200
I'm mailing myself as a nerd in that way. Yeah.
00:17:42.920 --> 00:17:46.040
Yeah, so stuff like that. I'm just like, oh, it's great because when you're
00:17:46.040 --> 00:17:51.320
Getting into a product like that yourself, which you're like, oh, is this any good?
00:17:51.320 --> 00:17:58.440
The community is like a feature of it really for sure because you get to learn how other people set stuff up
00:17:58.440 --> 00:18:01.240
You can reach out for help all that kind of stuff. So
00:18:01.240 --> 00:18:04.440
if you think about from um,
00:18:04.440 --> 00:18:10.040
Hey, i'm one person like, you know, like being an indie developer. You kind of need all the help you can get
00:18:10.760 --> 00:18:18.600
And there's a lot of, I think, just mutual benefit to having a closer connection and,
00:18:18.600 --> 00:18:24.680
like, line of communication between yourself and people who either use the product or just fans of
00:18:24.680 --> 00:18:32.360
it for getting feedback, for helping other people. Like, you know, ideally, if things go well, like,
00:18:32.360 --> 00:18:37.640
hey, they can help with, like, support. Because someone asks a question and it's like, well,
00:18:37.640 --> 00:18:41.400
maybe someone else jumps in and answers, right? Like maybe I can't get to it right away or
00:18:41.400 --> 00:18:47.720
something. But also like they have a hand in I think shaping the product at this point
00:18:47.720 --> 00:18:53.320
too because I'm trying to post more as I'm working, which again is very unnatural,
00:18:53.320 --> 00:19:00.040
feels very uncomfortable, but I'm trying to do it more. And it actually is nice because
00:19:00.040 --> 00:19:03.960
stuff I'm working on where it's just like, you know, like you have an idea and you're just kind
00:19:03.960 --> 00:19:07.560
of like riffing on it and then someone points something out and you go, "Oh yeah, that's
00:19:07.560 --> 00:19:11.800
actually a good point. Like I'll fix that, right? I'll do it in real time." And you do it before
00:19:11.800 --> 00:19:17.080
you ship anything and those people have a hand in actually making the product better, which I think,
00:19:17.080 --> 00:19:23.000
again, it's just like a nice little mutual ecosystem if it all goes well.
00:19:23.000 --> 00:19:29.880
Like I'm always so jealous of thinking of indies, I think of like drafts or even like
00:19:29.880 --> 00:19:35.720
Christian Selig with Apollo. Yeah. I feel like most apps that can pull it off. It's like,
00:19:35.720 --> 00:19:44.120
it's sort of like the creative, productive, like, life hacky. That's not the right term. I don't
00:19:44.120 --> 00:19:47.000
know what the right term is. Well, maybe it's the acronym you said a minute ago, but...
00:19:47.000 --> 00:19:48.520
PKM.
00:19:48.520 --> 00:19:49.720
PKM. It's all about the PKM.
00:19:49.720 --> 00:19:51.720
Get in there, man. Get in there.
00:19:51.720 --> 00:19:58.520
But like, it's hard to have it. I feel like it's only certain niches of apps that can kind of have
00:19:58.520 --> 00:20:01.180
have that, I guess Apollo is not that at all, but it's a Reddit app.
00:20:01.180 --> 00:20:03.100
So it makes sense that yeah.
00:20:03.100 --> 00:20:07.280
A network built around communities would also form a good community, but like,
00:20:07.280 --> 00:20:09.700
there's so many benefits if you can pull that off.
00:20:09.700 --> 00:20:10.000
Yeah.
00:20:10.000 --> 00:20:14.720
But I imagine it's also, there's also some trickiness to it, right?
00:20:14.720 --> 00:20:18.960
Like, like, do you find yourself having to do moderation or I guess I don't
00:20:18.960 --> 00:20:20.680
know what size you're dealing with, but.
00:20:20.680 --> 00:20:22.140
Yeah, it's small right now.
00:20:22.140 --> 00:20:25.700
So like the discord server has like, I think less than a hundred people in it.
00:20:25.700 --> 00:20:26.420
Okay.
00:20:26.420 --> 00:20:28.420
Very manageable at this point.
00:20:28.420 --> 00:20:31.160
- Yeah, I'm worried about it too, to be honest with you.
00:20:31.160 --> 00:20:34.560
So I had a, I actually had a, I set up a forum,
00:20:34.560 --> 00:20:38.160
Discourse Forum, and also, can we talk about the names
00:20:38.160 --> 00:20:39.000
of these products?
00:20:39.000 --> 00:20:41.040
Discourse and Discord, like who did this?
00:20:41.040 --> 00:20:43.680
- Mm, yeah, that's a little too close, isn't it?
00:20:43.680 --> 00:20:45.220
- Yeah, very confusing.
00:20:45.220 --> 00:20:49.060
So yeah, Discourse is the forum stuff,
00:20:49.060 --> 00:20:51.920
and I actually had that set up like,
00:20:51.920 --> 00:20:55.520
you would go to like forum.sofahq.com,
00:20:55.520 --> 00:20:57.400
and I ran that for like a year,
00:20:57.400 --> 00:21:00.840
And it was just like too much work.
00:21:00.840 --> 00:21:03.180
I shut it down at the beginning of 2022
00:21:03.180 --> 00:21:05.740
because it was just, I still have a full-time job,
00:21:05.740 --> 00:21:06.720
I'm doing this on the side.
00:21:06.720 --> 00:21:11.240
Like I have to be very picky with where I'm putting my time.
00:21:11.240 --> 00:21:15.620
And it was just taking up too much of my time
00:21:15.620 --> 00:21:17.560
to kind of check and all that stuff.
00:21:17.560 --> 00:21:18.640
And I was paying for it too.
00:21:18.640 --> 00:21:20.920
It was just, you know, it was like a hosted thing.
00:21:20.920 --> 00:21:25.920
- Yeah, I set up a Reddit whenever I first made Dark Noise.
00:21:26.560 --> 00:21:28.200
And actually I think it's still out there
00:21:28.200 --> 00:21:30.840
and there's even a link to it in the app.
00:21:30.840 --> 00:21:32.600
And like every once in a while,
00:21:32.600 --> 00:21:34.160
somebody will post in there.
00:21:34.160 --> 00:21:36.100
And for the longest time,
00:21:36.100 --> 00:21:38.280
I didn't know of a way to get notifications on that.
00:21:38.280 --> 00:21:41.320
And I got out of the habit of checking it because,
00:21:41.320 --> 00:21:44.240
you know, and then I'd go there and there'd be like,
00:21:44.240 --> 00:21:45.920
other people would answer the question,
00:21:45.920 --> 00:21:47.240
but then somebody would ask something
00:21:47.240 --> 00:21:49.000
and there'd just be nothing for like two months.
00:21:49.000 --> 00:21:51.420
And I'd be like, oh my gosh, I can't believe.
00:21:51.420 --> 00:21:56.120
But I did find out, IFTTT, wow, I can't remember.
00:21:56.120 --> 00:21:58.200
- Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, I forgot about that.
00:21:58.200 --> 00:21:59.240
- I don't remember what it stands for.
00:21:59.240 --> 00:22:00.760
Anyway, I'll look at the show.
00:22:00.760 --> 00:22:02.760
If this, then that, thank you.
00:22:02.760 --> 00:22:05.160
- PKM is what you're thinking of.
00:22:05.160 --> 00:22:06.840
- Struggling with the acronyms tonight.
00:22:06.840 --> 00:22:08.760
But there is a way with that
00:22:08.760 --> 00:22:10.480
that I could set up some sort of notification.
00:22:10.480 --> 00:22:11.720
Actually, you know what?
00:22:11.720 --> 00:22:15.320
Now Apollo, which we just mentioned, the Reddit app,
00:22:15.320 --> 00:22:19.960
it has notifications on subreddits that you can set up.
00:22:19.960 --> 00:22:21.720
I think-- - I did not realize.
00:22:21.720 --> 00:22:24.080
- Maybe it's just with Apollo Ultra, I'm not sure.
00:22:24.080 --> 00:22:25.720
If you don't have it and you use Reddit.
00:22:25.720 --> 00:22:30.200
pay for it. No, no, I worth it. Yeah, it's good. I use Apollo every day. I love it. I
00:22:30.200 --> 00:22:35.320
probably sound like a moron. I didn't know. I didn't know you could set up the notifications
00:22:35.320 --> 00:22:40.280
for like, not knowing a feature that's in Apollo is definitely a forgivable offense because
00:22:40.280 --> 00:22:45.560
that's fair. Thank you. A billion of them. I needed that. Thank you. Yeah. Yeah. Very kind.
00:22:45.560 --> 00:22:51.560
Yeah. Christian, I'll send you my invoice for your accidental ad later today. But yes, Apollo,
00:22:51.560 --> 00:22:56.920
go get it. It definitely is a thing that you have to keep up with or it can turn on you.
00:22:56.920 --> 00:23:01.480
And that's especially true with just support in general. Actually, maybe this is a little
00:23:01.480 --> 00:23:05.800
rabbit hole we can go down because we're recording at night. So you're getting unstructured, Charlie.
00:23:05.800 --> 00:23:11.880
How do you deal with support? I've noticed your website is one beautiful, but two,
00:23:11.880 --> 00:23:19.080
has a lot of things regarding frequently asked questions and support and community features.
00:23:19.080 --> 00:23:23.800
How do you manage that? Because I have been spectacularly failing with dark
00:23:23.800 --> 00:23:26.760
noise with keeping up with email and I don't know what to do.
00:23:26.760 --> 00:23:26.840
Yeah.
00:23:26.840 --> 00:23:29.160
Since I don't have, it's not my full-time job and I can't say,
00:23:29.160 --> 00:23:34.200
I spend four hours every Friday morning or something on it. I don't know how to deal with it.
00:23:34.200 --> 00:23:40.920
It can be a lot of times. What I do that is, so what's helped me is
00:23:40.920 --> 00:23:49.000
if I get a question from someone via email, it's pretty common that, or it's pretty likely
00:23:49.000 --> 00:23:57.320
that someone else is going to have that question. So, what I will do is I will set aside 15 minutes
00:23:57.320 --> 00:24:04.840
and just write that up as like, you know, a support document on the website. And then I will just,
00:24:04.840 --> 00:24:09.560
"Here's the link." Right? Like, "Oh, I have an answer to that. Here's the link." I can't tell
00:24:09.560 --> 00:24:16.360
you how much time it saved long-term to take 10 to 15 minutes, write up the support page,
00:24:17.720 --> 00:24:23.720
And then the number of times I shared just the link instead of rewriting it is it's it's wild. It's like
00:24:23.720 --> 00:24:28.200
Every time I go i'm so glad I did this, you know in the moment
00:24:28.200 --> 00:24:31.320
It's it's easy. It's easy to just like not do it, right?
00:24:31.320 --> 00:24:33.640
Like there's times i'm like, I don't feel like doing this, right?
00:24:33.640 --> 00:24:40.120
But i've been saved so many times by it that it's just worth it. It's like i'm asking a you know
00:24:40.120 --> 00:24:44.440
102 year old man. How did you do it? How did you stay so healthy and they're like
00:24:45.560 --> 00:24:51.000
I ate my vegetables and took a walk every day. Like it's like, Oh, right. Yes, there is an easy
00:24:51.000 --> 00:24:56.040
answer to this. And I'm just not doing the hard thing once. And instead, I'm taking the lazy
00:24:56.040 --> 00:25:00.520
approach. But yes, we'll just say that that was an aside for the sake of the audience.
00:25:00.520 --> 00:25:06.040
So they could hear that advice. And not because I have not been doing that.
00:25:06.040 --> 00:25:11.000
Easy, just said and done. And but yeah, there's I mean, you know, like, there's,
00:25:11.000 --> 00:25:15.800
there's periods where like the email support just like gets a little too high.
00:25:15.800 --> 00:25:19.800
That's the thing. And that's what happens to me is where it's like,
00:25:19.800 --> 00:25:25.560
you get overwhelmed with it. And then it's like, well, I can't stop and focus on
00:25:25.560 --> 00:25:32.520
getting this support stuff all written and built up because I'm trying to get through all these
00:25:32.520 --> 00:25:37.080
emails. And then the emails go away and then you stop, you know, focusing on that, right?
00:25:37.080 --> 00:25:42.040
Yeah, I think it's just like a forever struggle to just, you know, do your best.
00:25:42.040 --> 00:25:47.960
Do you use, do you just use like normal email or do you have some kind of help triage
00:25:47.960 --> 00:25:50.040
system or service or something?
00:25:50.040 --> 00:25:54.280
I just do it the dumb way. I just have like an email address that people and it just comes in
00:25:54.280 --> 00:25:59.640
and I go, "All right, I'll answer this email now." You know, so yeah, I know there are better tools
00:25:59.640 --> 00:26:06.520
out there, but I, part of me kind of likes the, just the like, yeah, it's just email.
00:26:06.520 --> 00:26:07.520
I don't know.
00:26:07.520 --> 00:26:08.760
Like it's just really simple.
00:26:08.760 --> 00:26:09.760
Yeah.
00:26:09.760 --> 00:26:11.760
I don't, I don't mind it to be honest with you.
00:26:11.760 --> 00:26:12.760
So.
00:26:12.760 --> 00:26:18.680
To kind of pull back into a normal show here, we, we already talked about the fact that
00:26:18.680 --> 00:26:22.520
you did switch over to subscriptions, but we haven't talked about how that actually
00:26:22.520 --> 00:26:23.520
went.
00:26:23.520 --> 00:26:29.080
Um, so one, the switch itself, but then also how has that like impacted the business?
00:26:29.080 --> 00:26:29.580
Yeah.
00:26:29.580 --> 00:26:31.480
Uh, it's been great.
00:26:31.480 --> 00:26:40.040
So, so it's been a year and a half since, uh, subscriptions have launched and I'm
00:26:40.040 --> 00:26:41.680
like, man, I wish I did it sooner.
00:26:41.680 --> 00:26:43.760
Like, so, so good.
00:26:43.760 --> 00:26:48.000
It's, it's scary at first.
00:26:48.000 --> 00:26:52.280
Cause you're like, all right, like I'm asking for real money here.
00:26:52.280 --> 00:26:58.000
And, and I get feedback from, uh, from people, this is not very frequent, but
00:26:58.000 --> 00:27:02.840
Like you can even see on the app store page, this is too expensive, right?
00:27:02.840 --> 00:27:03.640
This is too expensive.
00:27:03.640 --> 00:27:10.660
And I think compared to other apps, like a personal plan for the
00:27:10.660 --> 00:27:13.040
year is 35 bucks for the year.
00:27:13.040 --> 00:27:13.440
Right.
00:27:13.440 --> 00:27:19.260
And, uh, if you compare that to Apollo, which is like, I think it's like 10 bucks
00:27:19.260 --> 00:27:21.420
a year, it's like super cheap.
00:27:21.420 --> 00:27:24.780
I think he's under, he's, he's underpriced.
00:27:24.780 --> 00:27:26.200
He's got scale too, though.
00:27:26.400 --> 00:27:29.000
Uh, I mean, I don't want to say anything about his business necessarily,
00:27:29.000 --> 00:27:32.780
cause I don't have inside knowledge, but, uh, it's definitely, he's definitely
00:27:32.780 --> 00:27:36.300
playing on a different, you know, stratosphere, I feel like in a lot of
00:27:36.300 --> 00:27:36.940
different ways.
00:27:36.940 --> 00:27:37.900
Yeah.
00:27:37.900 --> 00:27:40.380
Um, yeah.
00:27:40.380 --> 00:27:45.140
So like I'll hear that feedback and stuff, but like the growth over the
00:27:45.140 --> 00:27:48.860
past year and a half has been really great.
00:27:48.860 --> 00:27:55.440
And I'm, I'm not picking up on any signs that like it's overpriced.
00:27:56.060 --> 00:28:00.260
If things are growing, plenty of people are very happy to pay.
00:28:00.260 --> 00:28:07.460
And, uh, yeah, I would, so in, uh, I did like a 20, 22 year and a few video.
00:28:07.460 --> 00:28:12.740
And in that, I was like, I was, I was talking to my wife and I was like, I
00:28:12.740 --> 00:28:14.460
don't know what to share here.
00:28:14.460 --> 00:28:15.820
Like, I am not comfortable.
00:28:15.820 --> 00:28:19.460
Like, you know, I was taught growing up, like, you don't talk about money.
00:28:19.460 --> 00:28:21.060
Don't do that.
00:28:21.060 --> 00:28:21.500
Right.
00:28:21.500 --> 00:28:22.300
Like that's rude.
00:28:22.300 --> 00:28:22.820
That's weird.
00:28:23.480 --> 00:28:27.560
And I'm like not comfortable like sharing numbers.
00:28:27.560 --> 00:28:32.200
So, in that video, I was like, "Okay, what can I share that I am comfortable with or
00:28:32.200 --> 00:28:33.480
kind of comfortable with?"
00:28:33.480 --> 00:28:35.640
And that was just like year over year growth.
00:28:35.640 --> 00:28:39.880
And you like, you did a good job of prepending that with, "I know," like,
00:28:39.880 --> 00:28:42.200
you don't know what the initial numbers are, like...
00:28:42.200 --> 00:28:42.520
100%.
00:28:42.520 --> 00:28:42.840
Yeah.
00:28:42.840 --> 00:28:43.560
Yeah.
00:28:43.560 --> 00:28:44.440
I thought that was great.
00:28:44.440 --> 00:28:47.480
That's my comfort level at this point.
00:28:47.480 --> 00:28:53.800
But I also know that like, as like indie developers, information, that kind of information
00:28:53.800 --> 00:29:02.360
is really helpful for us. So, I feel a mix of like guilt by not like giving back to like that
00:29:02.360 --> 00:29:07.560
community that I've learned a ton from and have benefited from. But I'm also like, I don't know,
00:29:07.560 --> 00:29:11.960
man. It's my -- it's like financial stuff. And that's, I don't know, that's pretty private. So...
00:29:11.960 --> 00:29:18.660
So it's it's a weird it's a really weird subject in part because of the same.
00:29:18.660 --> 00:29:23.560
Yeah, like companies are always like don't talk to other employees about how
00:29:23.560 --> 00:29:26.260
much you pay or how much you're paid, which of course they're not supposed to
00:29:26.260 --> 00:29:28.660
do and there's that angle of it, but then they do anyway.
00:29:28.660 --> 00:29:29.160
Yeah, right.
00:29:29.160 --> 00:29:29.560
Yeah.
00:29:29.560 --> 00:29:29.960
Yeah.
00:29:29.960 --> 00:29:34.960
So there's you know, there's a bunch of weird financial things, but even even
00:29:34.960 --> 00:29:40.460
if you like I especially because you know, my stuff all started really small.
00:29:41.160 --> 00:29:42.520
I didn't have any qualms about it.
00:29:42.520 --> 00:29:44.640
And I'd watched, I've talked about this on the show before,
00:29:44.640 --> 00:29:48.960
but I'd watched Jordan Morgan be extremely open
00:29:48.960 --> 00:29:49.800
and thought that was helpful.
00:29:49.800 --> 00:29:51.680
And so I was like, oh, I'll just do the same thing.
00:29:51.680 --> 00:29:54.680
But like, since Dark Noise has grown some,
00:29:54.680 --> 00:29:58.220
and in my opinion has grown despite me
00:29:58.220 --> 00:30:03.220
and the lack of time and skill or whatever you wanna say
00:30:03.220 --> 00:30:04.720
that I was able to put towards it,
00:30:04.720 --> 00:30:08.060
there is an element even once you've accepted,
00:30:08.060 --> 00:30:09.560
like I'm just gonna share everything,
00:30:09.560 --> 00:30:12.360
where you start feeling guilty sharing everything.
00:30:12.360 --> 00:30:17.360
'Cause you're like, am I giving a false pretense to somebody?
00:30:17.360 --> 00:30:20.680
Like I got super lucky and somebody could do
00:30:20.680 --> 00:30:22.600
all the same things as me and the numbers are way lower
00:30:22.600 --> 00:30:24.800
and am I actually making it worse by putting this out there?
00:30:24.800 --> 00:30:26.480
And I think it's just like,
00:30:26.480 --> 00:30:32.520
saying anything publicly is uncomfortable.
00:30:32.520 --> 00:30:33.440
- Correct.
00:30:33.440 --> 00:30:36.660
- And so saying things or not saying things,
00:30:36.660 --> 00:30:38.440
I don't know, I think there's pros and cons to anything.
00:30:38.440 --> 00:30:41.360
So everybody has to come to what they're comfortable with.
00:30:41.360 --> 00:30:45.360
But, but even if you share everything, it's not like, uh, now you feel like
00:30:45.360 --> 00:30:47.760
you're, you know, on top of the world and whatever.
00:30:47.760 --> 00:30:48.700
Yeah.
00:30:48.700 --> 00:30:53.580
It's, it's, it's a weird topic, but when people do it, I, I love it.
00:30:53.580 --> 00:30:54.640
I'm like, oh, this is great.
00:30:54.640 --> 00:30:55.120
I'm learning.
00:30:55.120 --> 00:30:55.800
This is awesome.
00:30:55.800 --> 00:30:56.640
Yeah.
00:30:56.640 --> 00:30:58.320
So that's, that's where like my guilt comes from.
00:30:58.320 --> 00:31:00.840
Cause I feel like I'm withholding, you know?
00:31:00.840 --> 00:31:01.280
So.
00:31:01.280 --> 00:31:06.180
No, because what you're doing, uh, and I, we can just go ahead and jump into this.
00:31:06.220 --> 00:31:08.220
I have a whole topic on different marketing things,
00:31:08.220 --> 00:31:12.580
but one of the marketing things that you've done is you have a YouTube
00:31:12.580 --> 00:31:16.700
channel, but it's not like just,
00:31:16.700 --> 00:31:19.780
here's the features of sofa or here's how you can do a power user thing and
00:31:19.780 --> 00:31:22.340
sofa. It's also like, here's a behind the scenes.
00:31:22.340 --> 00:31:26.140
Look at how I created my press kit. Like that's literally,
00:31:26.140 --> 00:31:27.180
you have a video about that,
00:31:27.180 --> 00:31:31.420
which is obviously not just for you selling copies of,
00:31:31.420 --> 00:31:33.940
of sofa it's it's for the community.
00:31:33.980 --> 00:31:38.060
And I feel like that kind of stuff is arguably a lot more beneficial even.
00:31:38.060 --> 00:31:40.300
Where did that all kind of come from?
00:31:40.300 --> 00:31:41.540
Yeah.
00:31:41.540 --> 00:31:46.940
So, I mean, I watch a lot of YouTube, like an unhealthy amount, maybe, but it's great.
00:31:46.940 --> 00:31:53.260
Um, I mean, I, I mean, so many people say it's like just the things you can learn
00:31:53.260 --> 00:31:55.180
on YouTube, it's just unbelievable.
00:31:55.180 --> 00:31:59.500
Most of the things I've learned about iOS development, I learned on YouTube.
00:31:59.500 --> 00:32:01.540
It's, it's just so good.
00:32:02.260 --> 00:32:09.820
And um, one of the things I there's like, um, photography is a hobby of mine.
00:32:09.820 --> 00:32:18.160
And that whole like area of YouTube is very interesting because they do
00:32:18.160 --> 00:32:19.640
tons of behind the scenes stuff.
00:32:19.640 --> 00:32:22.940
And I'm like, like one of the things I love watching, which is, it's
00:32:22.940 --> 00:32:27.640
going to sound really weird, but I love watching behind the scenes videos
00:32:27.680 --> 00:32:30.280
of photographers at weddings.
00:32:30.280 --> 00:32:33.300
Because to me, it's something I would never wanna do
00:32:33.300 --> 00:32:35.120
because the stress.
00:32:35.120 --> 00:32:37.220
It just seems like, don't screw this up.
00:32:37.220 --> 00:32:38.620
Like there's one shot here.
00:32:38.620 --> 00:32:40.440
And they just kill it.
00:32:40.440 --> 00:32:42.240
They just do so well.
00:32:42.240 --> 00:32:44.720
And they're also like shooting behind the scenes stuff
00:32:44.720 --> 00:32:48.100
as they're, you know, doing this person's wedding.
00:32:48.100 --> 00:32:50.780
But it's such a great way to learn too.
00:32:50.780 --> 00:32:53.360
Like as if, you know, to learn photography.
00:32:53.360 --> 00:32:55.520
And then there's this also,
00:32:55.520 --> 00:32:57.920
they POV videos of photographers.
00:32:57.920 --> 00:33:00.060
They like hook a GoPro up to their chest
00:33:00.060 --> 00:33:02.620
and then like walk around and take pictures.
00:33:02.620 --> 00:33:07.180
And it's such a great way to learn how they take pictures,
00:33:07.180 --> 00:33:09.980
like how they frame stuff, what their settings are,
00:33:09.980 --> 00:33:11.500
what they're seeing, what they're not seeing,
00:33:11.500 --> 00:33:13.100
that kind of stuff.
00:33:13.100 --> 00:33:16.220
And so bringing that back to SOFA,
00:33:16.220 --> 00:33:19.320
I mean, I'm doing stuff all the time, right?
00:33:19.320 --> 00:33:23.060
Like I have the website, I make a press kit.
00:33:23.060 --> 00:33:24.500
You know, we talked about like support pages
00:33:24.500 --> 00:33:30.820
stuff like that. I think, I actually think there's an overabundance of content for indie
00:33:30.820 --> 00:33:35.700
developers around code, right? Which is great. I don't need to contribute to that, right?
00:33:35.700 --> 00:33:40.340
Because my code ain't going to help anybody, right? Like, there are way better people for that.
00:33:40.340 --> 00:33:47.940
But when it comes to like, kind of your kind of product infrastructure, right? And how you do
00:33:47.940 --> 00:33:54.260
things and how you can scale yourself to be a little bit bigger than just one person.
00:33:54.260 --> 00:34:02.020
I think that stuff's really interesting. And I'm like, "Oh, I have ideas and opinions here
00:34:02.020 --> 00:34:07.220
that I think are worth sharing and people can learn from." Like, you can take, just take a
00:34:07.220 --> 00:34:10.180
little nugget that you like from the video and use it. You know, that's fine. You don't have
00:34:10.180 --> 00:34:13.060
to use the whole thing. - Yeah. I mean, that's the thing.
00:34:13.780 --> 00:34:16.740
It's kind of like, it's like getting to work with somebody.
00:34:16.740 --> 00:34:17.620
Yeah.
00:34:17.620 --> 00:34:22.900
In the sense that, like, so much of what I know how to do professionally is because I
00:34:22.900 --> 00:34:26.500
worked with people, at least I used to work with people in the same space, and you just
00:34:26.500 --> 00:34:30.420
see how they do things and like, hear people's thought processes as you go.
00:34:30.420 --> 00:34:35.060
And especially in the indie scene, but even on top of that, in the like,
00:34:35.060 --> 00:34:42.100
indie marketing, running a business, whatever you want to call that world,
00:34:42.820 --> 00:34:49.300
Most of us are doing that much more insular from the world, right?
00:34:49.300 --> 00:34:53.860
So like Twitter was pretty much the only space where I feel like I ever saw
00:34:53.860 --> 00:35:00.020
that kind of stuff really talked about. Like a press kit. People might talk about it there.
00:35:00.020 --> 00:35:06.900
But I feel like your video, I got like a dozen things from that. I literally have some notes
00:35:06.900 --> 00:35:10.900
from when I watched that one where I'm like, "Ooh!" Or not notes, but I threw it into my
00:35:12.020 --> 00:35:16.620
feedback for me. Yeah. I mean, like the idea of using notion, like, of course, I
00:35:16.620 --> 00:35:21.140
knew that that's a thing you could do. And when I first, like, when you first
00:35:21.140 --> 00:35:24.580
brought up that you use notion for your press kit, I was like, Oh, that's kind
00:35:24.580 --> 00:35:28.300
of a clever idea. But like, I have a system that kind of works well for me.
00:35:28.300 --> 00:35:31.780
But then there was a couple more things that you said, where I was like, Hmm,
00:35:31.780 --> 00:35:34.780
maybe I should really consider that. And then by the end of it, I'm like,
00:35:34.780 --> 00:35:39.860
alright, I'm adding a task to research. So like, what would it be like to
00:35:39.860 --> 00:35:42.180
switch this over to notion or craft or one of those.
00:35:42.180 --> 00:35:43.500
- Hmm, yeah, yeah.
00:35:43.500 --> 00:35:45.380
- Because it solved a couple little problems
00:35:45.380 --> 00:35:47.780
and it's like, I knew that existed
00:35:47.780 --> 00:35:50.520
because people have talked about stuff like that on Twitter.
00:35:50.520 --> 00:35:53.880
But watching you and hearing you talk through
00:35:53.880 --> 00:35:57.020
why you did it is a big part of, you know,
00:35:57.020 --> 00:36:00.860
what sort of got my brain chugging on that idea.
00:36:00.860 --> 00:36:02.880
So I love that kind of stuff.
00:36:02.880 --> 00:36:03.820
- That's cool, man.
00:36:03.820 --> 00:36:04.660
That's nice.
00:36:04.660 --> 00:36:08.940
Yeah, I mean, I've ideas for tons more videos like that.
00:36:08.940 --> 00:36:11.020
And I never want to be like preachy with stuff.
00:36:11.020 --> 00:36:14.380
Um, it just more like, Hey, this is what I did.
00:36:14.380 --> 00:36:15.200
Here's why I did it.
00:36:15.200 --> 00:36:18.040
And if, if it's helpful for you, great.
00:36:18.040 --> 00:36:18.840
You know?
00:36:18.840 --> 00:36:23.540
Um, cause you know, everyone's situation's different and it may not be a one
00:36:23.540 --> 00:36:25.680
to one match for, uh, for what people need.
00:36:25.680 --> 00:36:30.460
So, but I do think that, um, you might say like, okay, that stuff's
00:36:30.460 --> 00:36:31.780
great for like developers and stuff.
00:36:31.780 --> 00:36:34.780
I think people are just interested though.
00:36:34.780 --> 00:36:35.060
Right?
00:36:35.060 --> 00:36:39.520
Like people use apps all the time, but they have no clue where it comes from.
00:36:39.520 --> 00:36:40.960
They don't know who makes them.
00:36:40.960 --> 00:36:42.480
They don't know what's involved.
00:36:42.480 --> 00:36:48.480
And I think like one of my long-term ideas with the YouTube stuff, because the
00:36:48.480 --> 00:36:50.240
YouTube channel is like crazy small, right?
00:36:50.240 --> 00:36:52.200
Like it's, and that's totally fine.
00:36:52.200 --> 00:36:57.000
But the long-term idea is that, okay, I'm, you know, I'm asking people
00:36:57.000 --> 00:36:59.100
to pay real money for this thing.
00:36:59.100 --> 00:37:03.760
They have no idea who I am and they may not even know.
00:37:03.800 --> 00:37:07.240
They may think like, we hear the joke all the time, like everyone thinks just
00:37:07.240 --> 00:37:08.600
Apple makes all the apps, right?
00:37:08.600 --> 00:37:08.880
Yeah.
00:37:08.880 --> 00:37:18.680
So I have intentionally and uncomfortably put my face in, in different parts of the
00:37:18.680 --> 00:37:25.320
app and like the marketing stuff, uh, and with the YouTube channel more as a way to
00:37:25.320 --> 00:37:30.840
show that, like, there's like a real person here and it's not just like some big
00:37:30.840 --> 00:37:35.480
companies just trying to like cash grab stuff and look at all the work that I do for this.
00:37:35.480 --> 00:37:43.640
Like this is, this takes time. This takes a lot of effort and I mean, gang, 35 bucks a year
00:37:43.640 --> 00:37:51.320
is not expensive. I'm sorry. It's just not. Like it's not. So, you know, that's a hill I will die
00:37:51.320 --> 00:37:59.480
on. Yeah, it's interesting like, because I do the same kind of thing. I feel like I, a lot of my
00:37:59.480 --> 00:38:04.040
support requests, and even reviews a lot of times will literally call me up by name.
00:38:04.040 --> 00:38:08.040
They'll be like, "Hey, Charlie," or "Charlie's a great..." whatever,
00:38:08.040 --> 00:38:11.800
which is awesome when it's positive.
00:38:11.800 --> 00:38:12.360
Awesome.
00:38:12.360 --> 00:38:19.080
But I always wonder... I've talked to a lot of people on this show about this exact thing,
00:38:19.080 --> 00:38:25.080
where it's like, there's a point... Whenever you're doing a thing on the side in our community,
00:38:25.080 --> 00:38:28.760
most people using it at first are probably going to be other people in our community,
00:38:28.760 --> 00:38:31.960
because that's who you reach, right? But if you start getting traction on the store,
00:38:31.960 --> 00:38:39.640
the majority of people that are downloading your app, you got that acquisition through the app
00:38:39.640 --> 00:38:45.160
store. There didn't go to your website. They don't know who you are on Twitter. I doubt that they're
00:38:45.160 --> 00:38:52.440
on your YouTube page. So do you also integrate your face or your name or anything like that
00:38:52.440 --> 00:38:56.360
in the app itself? Yeah. In the settings page,
00:38:57.320 --> 00:39:01.200
Like if you scroll to bottom, my very beautiful face is there.
00:39:01.200 --> 00:39:02.700
Okay, so your actual face is there.
00:39:02.700 --> 00:39:04.600
I didn't notice that before.
00:39:04.600 --> 00:39:07.960
And it's small enough so that I look better.
00:39:07.960 --> 00:39:11.880
You know, if it was bigger, it wouldn't be horrifying.
00:39:11.880 --> 00:39:14.680
Oh yeah, look at that.
00:39:14.680 --> 00:39:15.960
But yeah, just subtle ways.
00:39:15.960 --> 00:39:19.880
And again, like, that's also like kind of buried, right?
00:39:19.880 --> 00:39:23.080
It's like in settings all the way at the bottom, right?
00:39:23.080 --> 00:39:24.080
Which is fine, right?
00:39:24.080 --> 00:39:27.500
I'm not trying to hit people over the head with this,
00:39:27.500 --> 00:39:32.280
but for those that are kind of curious, it can be helpful.
00:39:32.280 --> 00:39:34.920
Most people are probably not gonna care though,
00:39:34.920 --> 00:39:36.280
which is fine.
00:39:36.280 --> 00:39:40.200
- Right, it's nice whenever that stuff's surrounding
00:39:40.200 --> 00:39:44.400
the parts where they start trying to solve a problem.
00:39:44.400 --> 00:39:47.600
If you can find the areas where people are frustrated
00:39:47.600 --> 00:39:49.600
and at those points make it more obvious
00:39:49.600 --> 00:39:52.400
that it's a single human being behind this,
00:39:52.400 --> 00:39:53.280
like maybe that helps.
00:39:53.280 --> 00:39:59.040
- Yeah. And it's true. Like you just said it, like people say, call you out by name,
00:39:59.040 --> 00:40:04.960
like, "Oh, hey, Charlie." People do it to me too through support emails. I like that. I think it's
00:40:04.960 --> 00:40:12.000
nice, you know? Because like, they know it's me, right? It's not like, "To whom it may concern,"
00:40:12.000 --> 00:40:16.640
right? Kind of thing. Or like, "Dear company." It's like, "Hey, Sean, there's this problem. Can
00:40:16.640 --> 00:40:21.520
you please help me?" So, it's nice. - Yeah. There's definitely a different
00:40:22.160 --> 00:40:27.040
voice in support emails when somebody realizes you're a person.
00:40:27.040 --> 00:40:32.280
Because I also get support emails that'll be like referencing the team or
00:40:32.280 --> 00:40:36.720
you all or, you know, words like that where it's like, oh, this person thinks
00:40:36.720 --> 00:40:38.240
I'm a company company.
00:40:38.240 --> 00:40:43.160
And then when I respond, I'm a little more, I mean, I'm always pretty personal
00:40:43.160 --> 00:40:46.760
because usually I'm trying to reply on my phone while my kids are brushing
00:40:46.760 --> 00:40:47.520
their teeth or something.
00:40:47.520 --> 00:40:48.440
Oh yeah.
00:40:49.200 --> 00:40:53.200
And like the next reply that you get back, you know, if the person's angry or
00:40:53.200 --> 00:40:57.640
whatever is usually a lot more, uh, human, if that makes sense.
00:40:57.640 --> 00:40:59.040
A hundred percent.
00:40:59.040 --> 00:41:02.780
It's a great way to diffuse any kind of tension that's there.
00:41:02.780 --> 00:41:06.800
You know, I imagine there's arguments for the other way in terms of, especially
00:41:06.800 --> 00:41:10.120
depending on the type of app that you're building, if, if you want the trust of
00:41:10.120 --> 00:41:14.360
being a company and not an individual, because there's an assumption you make
00:41:14.360 --> 00:41:18.920
whenever you download software and it's like, oh, this is some guy in, you know,
00:41:18.920 --> 00:41:23.600
their mom's basement or whatever making this and you kind of have a idea in your
00:41:23.600 --> 00:41:27.200
head of what level of support and quality you should get out of this.
00:41:27.200 --> 00:41:30.840
Um, but I guess if the app speaks for itself, then by the time they've gotten
00:41:30.840 --> 00:41:36.320
to the point of realizing you're a person, they already know that this is a, an app
00:41:36.320 --> 00:41:38.200
with the quality that you've already presented.
00:41:38.200 --> 00:41:42.540
And there's like a, you know, most people don't write in, right?
00:41:42.540 --> 00:41:46.040
Like there's also like the, there's the selection of folks who actually take
00:41:46.040 --> 00:41:51.240
time do it, which is awesome. But most people, if they run into an issue or if they have a question,
00:41:51.240 --> 00:41:56.760
they probably just like, "I guess I can't figure this out. I guess it's broken." You know? And
00:41:56.760 --> 00:42:01.560
then they just like put it away. I struggled for a long time figuring out how to do your like,
00:42:01.560 --> 00:42:06.120
my signature at the end of an email that's like a genuine support this person's having trouble,
00:42:06.120 --> 00:42:09.560
you know? Because it always feels weird saying, "Thanks!" with an exclamation point,
00:42:09.560 --> 00:42:13.800
Charlie, salutations felt a little too formal.
00:42:13.800 --> 00:42:14.920
Yeah.
00:42:14.920 --> 00:42:19.560
And what I kind of landed on most of the time is "Thanks for reaching out."
00:42:19.560 --> 00:42:22.120
And that wording...
00:42:22.120 --> 00:42:22.840
That's a good one.
00:42:22.840 --> 00:42:26.520
...to that point that you just made of like, "Most people don't reach out."
00:42:26.520 --> 00:42:30.920
And I want to signal like, "I'm really grateful that you didn't just
00:42:30.920 --> 00:42:34.280
bail or leave a bad review. You actually pinged me."
00:42:34.280 --> 00:42:34.920
Yes.
00:42:34.920 --> 00:42:40.360
And so that's kind of why, like, probably nobody that gets my emails cares what the signature is,
00:42:40.360 --> 00:42:45.400
but it makes it easier for me to send them now, having that kind of at the end of most of them.
00:42:45.400 --> 00:42:52.040
Yeah. I've been doing, if it's a Super Sofa subscriber who emails me,
00:42:52.040 --> 00:42:56.360
I'll say every time, "Thanks for your support." Every time.
00:42:56.360 --> 00:42:56.440
Yeah.
00:42:56.440 --> 00:43:02.200
So, and like, because it's true. Thank you. Like, that's amazing that... Dude, isn't it weird that,
00:43:02.200 --> 00:43:05.800
like you made something and someone bought it like someone
00:43:05.800 --> 00:43:10.200
freaks me out. Yeah. Yeah. That's I've said that on the
00:43:10.200 --> 00:43:13.720
show too, but like like when support email gets heavy, which
00:43:13.720 --> 00:43:15.720
I'm in a phase right now where it's a little heavier. I don't
00:43:15.720 --> 00:43:19.160
have this feeling admittedly, but there are times where I'll
00:43:19.160 --> 00:43:24.520
get a support email that like in iOS 16 or in iOS like dot
00:43:24.520 --> 00:43:27.480
update broke something or even an update that I pushed out
00:43:27.480 --> 00:43:30.520
broke something and it'll happen right after one of those
00:43:30.520 --> 00:43:36.120
things happen. And my initial feeling is usually not like, "Oh, I gotta go fix this." It's like,
00:43:36.120 --> 00:43:41.080
"Somebody noticed." Like, "There's a human being behind these numbers." You know? Like,
00:43:41.080 --> 00:43:45.720
yeah, that is actually like a really nice feeling, surprisingly.
00:43:45.720 --> 00:43:55.240
Oh, it's amazing. Like, someone cares enough to even like write an email. It's just, it's so nice.
00:43:55.880 --> 00:44:03.640
Yeah. Yeah. Even even the I haven't gotten like a super mean one, but the ones that are maybe a little there's a little, uh,
00:44:03.640 --> 00:44:13.800
a little aggressiveness behind it, you know, uh, hey, thanks for writing it. That's cool. You know, you care enough to you care enough to get mad. That's cool. You know?
00:44:14.200 --> 00:44:23.800
Yeah, I haven't had to deal with the like the really angry thing, but I'm I'm I'm very girded up for it, uh, preparing for this subscription switch because
00:44:23.800 --> 00:44:42.400
Usually the most, uh, I don't know how to phrase this hostile is not the right word, but like, yeah, the ones that make me feel a little tense, uh, are usually the ones that are like, thank you so much for not being one of the horrible mean, angry, terrible, awful money grabbing developers that uses subscriptions.
00:44:42.400 --> 00:44:44.480
and I'm kind of like, "Oh no."
00:44:44.480 --> 00:44:45.320
- Not yet.
00:44:45.320 --> 00:44:46.960
(both laughing)
00:44:46.960 --> 00:44:49.200
- That's a threat, isn't it?
00:44:49.200 --> 00:44:51.280
And they're probably not meaning it that way, you know?
00:44:51.280 --> 00:44:52.120
- Yeah.
00:44:52.120 --> 00:44:54.000
- But it always feels that way to me,
00:44:54.000 --> 00:44:56.840
like you're gonna come back for me, aren't you?
00:44:56.840 --> 00:44:58.120
- I mean, they might, right?
00:44:58.120 --> 00:45:00.040
- Well, hopefully they won't, 'cause I'm not gonna like,
00:45:00.040 --> 00:45:01.040
- Yeah, yeah. - take it away
00:45:01.040 --> 00:45:02.720
from somebody who's already paid, but.
00:45:02.720 --> 00:45:04.640
- Yeah, how are you doing with all that?
00:45:04.640 --> 00:45:06.640
Is that getting close, you think?
00:45:06.640 --> 00:45:08.480
And if you don't wanna talk about it, that's fine.
00:45:08.480 --> 00:45:10.640
- I'm always afraid I'm gonna like turn this into
00:45:10.640 --> 00:45:12.240
me talking about my things show.
00:45:12.240 --> 00:45:17.140
So, well, people aren't here for me though.
00:45:17.140 --> 00:45:17.840
They're here for you.
00:45:17.840 --> 00:45:23.860
Um, but, uh, but no, I am a decent ways into it.
00:45:23.860 --> 00:45:31.060
I, uh, you know, there was a bunch of company, my job, job stuff that all, uh,
00:45:31.060 --> 00:45:34.480
all kind of got crazy for a little bit.
00:45:34.480 --> 00:45:37.700
That was making me really drive on a lot of these things.
00:45:37.700 --> 00:45:41.320
Um, and so I'm on the other side of that.
00:45:41.320 --> 00:45:44.680
And now the jobby job's taking a little bit more of my brain power.
00:45:44.680 --> 00:45:49.800
So I've slowed down a little bit, but my, probably my top priority right now is to
00:45:49.800 --> 00:45:52.320
get that switch taken care of.
00:45:52.320 --> 00:45:54.800
Cause it's weighing heavily on my brain.
00:45:54.800 --> 00:45:59.320
And also I keep hearing things from people like you saying, I just wish I had switched
00:45:59.320 --> 00:45:59.760
it sooner.
00:45:59.760 --> 00:46:01.920
And I'm like, I'm already, I've already made the decision.
00:46:01.920 --> 00:46:05.960
Now I just want it to be switched over and to deal with these consequences.
00:46:05.960 --> 00:46:10.440
But I work very slowly, deliberately is the word I use.
00:46:10.440 --> 00:46:12.540
But really what I mean is scared, scaredly.
00:46:12.540 --> 00:46:16.340
Um, yeah, the fear is real.
00:46:16.340 --> 00:46:16.980
Oh my God.
00:46:16.980 --> 00:46:19.680
Fear of messing things up of bugs of yeah.
00:46:19.680 --> 00:46:20.560
And any of that stuff.
00:46:20.560 --> 00:46:24.740
I'm, I'm a very slow developer, but, um, yeah, well, I'm slower than you.
00:46:24.740 --> 00:46:25.500
It's brutal.
00:46:25.500 --> 00:46:26.160
Yeah.
00:46:26.160 --> 00:46:31.200
It's like, sometimes I'm like, when am I even like, how did I make it here?
00:46:31.200 --> 00:46:33.380
You know, like how'd I get here?
00:46:33.380 --> 00:46:38.980
It's crazy how like continually working on something.
00:46:40.400 --> 00:46:44.080
when you look back, you've traveled forward.
00:46:44.080 --> 00:46:48.880
Like, walking really, really slowly for multiple years
00:46:48.880 --> 00:46:50.720
still gets you somewhere.
00:46:50.720 --> 00:46:51.560
- Yes.
00:46:51.560 --> 00:46:54.260
- And that's the thing that's been weird with,
00:46:54.260 --> 00:46:57.200
I think, and maybe you've experienced this too,
00:46:57.200 --> 00:47:03.000
but like by being so public about what I'm working on,
00:47:03.000 --> 00:47:07.160
it's sort of this natural driver to like get back
00:47:07.160 --> 00:47:11.160
to the thing that people in my head know me for.
00:47:11.160 --> 00:47:12.440
- Sure.
00:47:12.440 --> 00:47:15.380
- And because of that, even when I'm in like the down times
00:47:15.380 --> 00:47:18.060
where I'm just not moving or anything,
00:47:18.060 --> 00:47:20.780
I'm still just like plugging away at little tickets
00:47:20.780 --> 00:47:23.580
I can pull or little small things I can do.
00:47:23.580 --> 00:47:28.920
And then when those iOS 16 or iOS updates come out
00:47:28.920 --> 00:47:31.200
or new features or whatever happened,
00:47:31.200 --> 00:47:32.920
then I like kind of pull it together
00:47:32.920 --> 00:47:35.360
and get a couple of features all at once.
00:47:35.360 --> 00:47:36.780
But then yeah, when you look back on it,
00:47:36.780 --> 00:47:40.580
you're like, you know, I actually did make some stuff, didn't I?
00:47:40.580 --> 00:47:41.980
Like this is moving forward.
00:47:41.980 --> 00:47:44.280
It's not as stagnant as it feels like in my head.
00:47:44.280 --> 00:47:47.580
Yeah, just I mean just showing up.
00:47:47.580 --> 00:47:51.580
It's like just show up regularly and you'll make progress.
00:47:51.580 --> 00:47:53.880
Yeah, if it's like little bits at a time.
00:47:53.880 --> 00:47:58.180
This episode of launched is brought to you by impress kit.
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00:49:02.760 --> 00:49:07.000
So okay, we're talking about marketing right now.
00:49:07.000 --> 00:49:09.320
Man, you're really getting late night Charlie here
00:49:09.320 --> 00:49:12.320
with the tangents. - Oh, you're good.
00:49:12.320 --> 00:49:13.520
- So there was a couple of other things
00:49:13.520 --> 00:49:14.360
I did wanna talk about.
00:49:14.360 --> 00:49:15.660
So we talked about the YouTube channel.
00:49:15.660 --> 00:49:17.480
I don't even know if we talked about why you started.
00:49:17.480 --> 00:49:18.320
Oh yeah, we did.
00:49:18.320 --> 00:49:21.000
We talked a lot about why you started the YouTube channel.
00:49:21.000 --> 00:49:23.440
But there's a couple other things that you've talked about.
00:49:23.440 --> 00:49:27.980
One of them is doing some paid sponsorships advertisements
00:49:27.980 --> 00:49:29.440
for different things.
00:49:29.440 --> 00:49:32.520
Like there was some podcasts that you did last year.
00:49:32.520 --> 00:49:35.680
I'm curious, again, why you chose to do that
00:49:35.680 --> 00:49:37.360
and then how it went.
00:49:37.360 --> 00:49:41.800
- Yeah, so, I mean, marketing is like,
00:49:41.800 --> 00:49:45.600
I feel like I've, you know, this podcast is great
00:49:45.600 --> 00:49:49.160
because I've got to hear so many other developers
00:49:49.160 --> 00:49:51.000
talk about stuff like this.
00:49:51.000 --> 00:49:52.600
And I feel like marketing is the one thing
00:49:52.600 --> 00:49:54.160
that keeps coming up is like,
00:49:54.160 --> 00:49:55.880
yeah, this is like, I don't really know what to do
00:49:55.880 --> 00:49:58.060
or it's really hard and all that stuff.
00:49:59.660 --> 00:50:03.780
And also, just getting attention is just so hard.
00:50:03.780 --> 00:50:04.620
- Yeah.
00:50:04.620 --> 00:50:07.260
- Because everyone is screaming for attention.
00:50:07.260 --> 00:50:09.580
Like everybody, whether it's on Twitter,
00:50:09.580 --> 00:50:12.340
or just social media or whatever.
00:50:12.340 --> 00:50:18.860
And the realization I came to is that
00:50:18.860 --> 00:50:26.580
the market is so saturated in terms of apps
00:50:27.340 --> 00:50:31.300
that I'm gonna have to pay for some attention
00:50:31.300 --> 00:50:35.760
as opposed to like earning it from scratch.
00:50:35.760 --> 00:50:38.860
Like I just kind of like accepted that
00:50:38.860 --> 00:50:40.260
and I'm okay with it.
00:50:40.260 --> 00:50:41.260
Like that's fine.
00:50:41.260 --> 00:50:43.220
Like most businesses have to pay to advertise.
00:50:43.220 --> 00:50:44.460
That's kind of how it works, right?
00:50:44.460 --> 00:50:46.380
Like that's pretty normal, right?
00:50:46.380 --> 00:50:49.620
If you go to like any local business in your town,
00:50:49.620 --> 00:50:51.700
they're like, yeah, we have to advertise.
00:50:51.700 --> 00:50:53.740
I don't really know what's the problem, right?
00:50:53.740 --> 00:50:54.980
Like that's how it works.
00:50:56.860 --> 00:51:00.200
The reason I wanted to start with podcast is,
00:51:00.200 --> 00:51:05.860
when I was thinking about the sponsors
00:51:05.860 --> 00:51:09.460
or the ads that I have come across in different media,
00:51:09.460 --> 00:51:11.860
whether it's like, I don't really see YouTube ads anymore
00:51:11.860 --> 00:51:12.860
'cause I have YouTube premium,
00:51:12.860 --> 00:51:17.860
but whether it was like YouTube or on Twitter
00:51:17.860 --> 00:51:20.700
or like, you know, Instagram ads are amazing.
00:51:20.700 --> 00:51:22.620
Like they're, because you're always like,
00:51:22.620 --> 00:51:24.380
oh, that looks good, it looks good.
00:51:25.420 --> 00:51:28.220
But the stuff that I always valued was,
00:51:28.220 --> 00:51:31.100
a lot of it comes from podcasts, to be honest with you.
00:51:31.100 --> 00:51:36.100
There's something about hearing the host read it.
00:51:36.100 --> 00:51:37.260
- Oh yeah.
00:51:37.260 --> 00:51:40.300
- That it just hits different, it just does.
00:51:40.300 --> 00:51:43.780
And so that's why I wanted to do that and start there.
00:51:43.780 --> 00:51:46.700
And again, I'd never written ad copy before.
00:51:46.700 --> 00:51:48.780
So I was like, okay, I have to write ad copy.
00:51:48.780 --> 00:51:50.380
So I like went back and like,
00:51:50.380 --> 00:51:52.060
I was like really listening to ads
00:51:52.060 --> 00:51:53.900
in a different way than I was before.
00:51:54.820 --> 00:52:02.580
So, yeah, so then I, and I picked a few Apple-centric podcasts, like Connected,
00:52:02.580 --> 00:52:10.260
Focused, the talk show at the end of the year, sponsored. I actually even sponsored Daring
00:52:10.260 --> 00:52:13.540
Fireball over the summer, like the site. Oh, the website.
00:52:13.540 --> 00:52:18.260
Yeah, which, so this is gonna sound weird, but like, I remember thinking, I was like,
00:52:18.260 --> 00:52:23.860
"Oh, one day I want, I want to, I want to sponsor that." Like, like, I've, like many of us read
00:52:23.860 --> 00:52:29.380
daring fireball for years. And I just like, "Oh yeah, I want to do that one day." And I did it
00:52:29.380 --> 00:52:35.300
over the summer. It was great. And sponsoring a talk show was great. And all the other podcasts
00:52:35.300 --> 00:52:43.300
was great. And I think the way I'm thinking of it is it's not like direct advertising,
00:52:43.300 --> 00:52:49.940
like direct response where I'm expecting immediate returns on this stuff. Because if you think about
00:52:50.740 --> 00:52:56.340
a lot of products that you come across or a lot of brands, you just, you get hit with so much stuff
00:52:56.340 --> 00:53:03.300
now that you may actually need to hear something a few times or come across something a few times
00:53:03.300 --> 00:53:08.980
before you actually do anything about it. So... There's a name for that, right? Is that brand
00:53:08.980 --> 00:53:14.100
advertising or... Yeah, brand advertising. Okay, yeah. Like that's like your Coca-Cola is sponsoring
00:53:14.100 --> 00:53:17.620
a skateboarding event or something. And it's like, obviously,
00:53:19.140 --> 00:53:25.220
They don't have a special URL that everybody that goes to that event is, you know, going to
00:53:25.220 --> 00:53:33.460
coca-cola.com/extreme and they can directly attribute that, but it's like getting their
00:53:33.460 --> 00:53:39.060
name more well-known, I guess. Yeah, or just keeping it in people's minds, that kind of stuff.
00:53:39.060 --> 00:53:43.300
Yeah. Yeah, but for me, like, I'm literally starting from zero, right? Like, nobody knows
00:53:43.300 --> 00:53:52.500
who Sofa is and who I am. So, my approach to this is definitely more long-term and I
00:53:52.500 --> 00:54:00.580
am very happy with how everything performed this year in terms of like ROI, right? Like,
00:54:00.580 --> 00:54:06.500
let's talk about ROI, bro, right? That's probably the word I hate the most is the word ROI.
00:54:06.500 --> 00:54:07.220
Really? Oh.
00:54:07.220 --> 00:54:07.460
It's a trash word.
00:54:07.460 --> 00:54:10.420
You gotta pronounce it Roy in your head or Roe-y.
00:54:10.420 --> 00:54:11.620
I like Roy. Yeah.
00:54:11.620 --> 00:54:12.500
Yeah, Roy is fun.
00:54:12.500 --> 00:54:16.620
Do they, do they have a, if we can say EBITDA, we can say Roy.
00:54:16.620 --> 00:54:20.280
You're pulling out the weird ones.
00:54:20.280 --> 00:54:20.660
That's good.
00:54:20.660 --> 00:54:21.000
EBITDA.
00:54:21.000 --> 00:54:21.300
Yeah.
00:54:21.300 --> 00:54:21.660
Okay.
00:54:21.660 --> 00:54:22.380
Let's talk about EBITDA.
00:54:22.380 --> 00:54:29.140
Um, yeah, so, and the podcast stuff is, is it's like a form of brain advertising
00:54:29.140 --> 00:54:34.020
and direct response where like, I did say, Hey, go to sofa HQ.com/thetalkshow.
00:54:34.020 --> 00:54:34.320
Right.
00:54:34.320 --> 00:54:38.180
So I am able to see some metrics from that, but it's also not a guarantee that
00:54:38.180 --> 00:54:39.500
people will go click on it.
00:54:39.500 --> 00:54:39.840
Right.
00:54:39.840 --> 00:54:43.600
because they might just go to the app store or they might just not do anything.
00:54:43.600 --> 00:54:48.400
How did you, I mean, I won't ask specifics, just, I don't know if you don't want to like
00:54:48.400 --> 00:54:54.160
call out certain shows or whatever, but like, did you, like, did you feel like at least some
00:54:54.160 --> 00:54:59.360
of those they paid for themselves or was that an investment that's a long term thing?
00:54:59.360 --> 00:55:03.600
I'm trying to think because I don't want to, I don't want to say this in a way that like makes
00:55:03.600 --> 00:55:05.760
any other show look bad.
00:55:05.760 --> 00:55:06.400
Sure, right.
00:55:07.040 --> 00:55:11.840
I would say in the aggregate, everything paid for itself and more.
00:55:11.840 --> 00:55:13.440
- Okay. - So, yeah.
00:55:13.440 --> 00:55:19.280
So it was well worth it and I plan to do more of it in 2023.
00:55:19.280 --> 00:55:20.320
- That's interesting.
00:55:20.320 --> 00:55:25.600
So do you have in your head or not in your head, in written down somewhere,
00:55:25.600 --> 00:55:33.920
I should know the acronym for this off the top of my head, but how much a user is worth?
00:55:33.920 --> 00:55:35.760
- Oh, like the lifetime value?
00:55:35.760 --> 00:55:36.800
- Thank you. - The LTVs?
00:55:36.800 --> 00:55:38.560
- Yes, LTV, there we go, man.
00:55:38.560 --> 00:55:40.800
- LTV, yeah.
00:55:40.800 --> 00:55:41.640
LGTV.
00:55:41.640 --> 00:55:43.880
- We're turning into a real business podcast here.
00:55:43.880 --> 00:55:45.720
- I know, look at us.
00:55:45.720 --> 00:55:49.040
I should go get a Patagonia vest, put that on.
00:55:49.040 --> 00:55:49.880
- There you go.
00:55:49.880 --> 00:55:50.700
- With a nice top. - We're gonna move out
00:55:50.700 --> 00:55:52.320
to the valley or Miami.
00:55:52.320 --> 00:55:54.280
Those are the two options, I think.
00:55:54.280 --> 00:55:56.720
- Yeah, oh, that sounds good.
00:55:56.720 --> 00:56:01.060
Yeah, so there's a couple of metrics that I track.
00:56:01.060 --> 00:56:04.520
LTV is not one yet,
00:56:04.520 --> 00:56:08.200
mostly because I've only had subscriptions
00:56:08.200 --> 00:56:09.040
for a year and a half.
00:56:09.040 --> 00:56:10.880
- Right, how could you know, yeah.
00:56:10.880 --> 00:56:12.960
- Yeah, so I feel like there's a number there,
00:56:12.960 --> 00:56:16.280
but I don't think it's accurate enough
00:56:16.280 --> 00:56:17.720
to really track at this point.
00:56:17.720 --> 00:56:20.840
So the metrics that I really look at
00:56:20.840 --> 00:56:24.040
are the monthly recurring revenues, so MMR,
00:56:24.040 --> 00:56:26.220
and ARR, annual recurring revenue,
00:56:26.220 --> 00:56:27.840
and then active subscribers.
00:56:27.840 --> 00:56:32.240
Those are the things that I'm actively looking at daily.
00:56:32.240 --> 00:56:33.760
- Okay, yeah, that makes sense.
00:56:33.760 --> 00:56:36.000
'Cause that's like a thing that's, you know,
00:56:36.000 --> 00:56:40.160
a difference with advertising a subscription versus,
00:56:40.160 --> 00:56:42.280
like I feel like I'm playing on easy mode
00:56:42.280 --> 00:56:45.600
in a lot of these, the little bit of advertising stuff
00:56:45.600 --> 00:56:47.440
that I mess with, because it's like,
00:56:47.440 --> 00:56:51.240
there is a literal, very clear fixed dollar amount
00:56:51.240 --> 00:56:53.940
that each customer is worth to me.
00:56:53.940 --> 00:56:55.720
And I can pay-- - Oh yeah, yeah.
00:56:55.720 --> 00:56:57.240
- Basically up to that number
00:56:57.240 --> 00:56:58.720
and I'm at least making money.
00:56:58.720 --> 00:57:00.240
- Have you done ads?
00:57:00.240 --> 00:57:04.080
- I just use the app store ads.
00:57:04.080 --> 00:57:05.900
- Oh, yeah, how's that go?
00:57:05.900 --> 00:57:09.480
- Okay, so I don't know.
00:57:09.480 --> 00:57:12.840
So I just described the situation of,
00:57:12.840 --> 00:57:14.840
oh, it's easy because I can just set,
00:57:14.840 --> 00:57:19.840
okay, my app is $9.99, so 15% off from Apple's cut
00:57:19.840 --> 00:57:24.800
and then a little bit 'cause I want some profit margin.
00:57:24.800 --> 00:57:27.920
So it's like I'm willing to pay $7 or something.
00:57:27.920 --> 00:57:29.240
I don't remember what I have it set at,
00:57:29.240 --> 00:57:30.800
but some amount and it's like,
00:57:30.800 --> 00:57:34.480
if I like make a sale,
00:57:34.480 --> 00:57:36.480
and that's how they charge for the app store.
00:57:36.480 --> 00:57:37.880
It's not like they click the link
00:57:37.880 --> 00:57:39.080
and then you have to get a conversion.
00:57:39.080 --> 00:57:41.640
It's literally, I'm paying for the ad
00:57:41.640 --> 00:57:43.540
if they download the app.
00:57:43.540 --> 00:57:45.080
And in my case, them downloading the app
00:57:45.080 --> 00:57:47.140
is they're paying for the app.
00:57:47.140 --> 00:57:49.160
- That actually makes a lot of sense for you, yeah.
00:57:49.160 --> 00:57:53.680
- The thing is, I've noticed that I will have
00:57:54.840 --> 00:58:03.360
big spikes in how many sales I get through ads whenever I have big sales in or big spikes
00:58:03.360 --> 00:58:05.340
in sales from other means.
00:58:05.340 --> 00:58:11.760
So like if I'm on a podcast or I'm featured on the app store or somebody writes about
00:58:11.760 --> 00:58:17.160
me in a blog or something, I'll also get a conspicuous spike in ad sales and I don't
00:58:17.160 --> 00:58:21.600
understand if it's I think what's happening is people search dark noise and then a dark
00:58:21.600 --> 00:58:27.360
noise ad shows. And so then they click the ad and it's like they were they were my customer
00:58:27.360 --> 00:58:34.400
already at that point. Yeah. But now I just gave Apple, you know, 60% of of my my sale.
00:58:34.400 --> 00:58:41.760
And so I don't know. I haven't done the work to figure out if that is accurate or if that's
00:58:41.760 --> 00:58:48.160
just this is my hunch, right? Based on. Yeah. Yeah. A sudden big bill from ads on the same
00:58:48.160 --> 00:58:52.080
days that I think I've earned a lot of sales on my own.
00:58:52.080 --> 00:58:55.560
But it certainly seems like there's that element to it.
00:58:55.560 --> 00:59:00.080
So it feels like an easy calculation, but I think I'm actually still overpaying.
00:59:00.080 --> 00:59:03.120
Like, I don't know if I should be smarter about how I do that or how you avoid that,
00:59:03.120 --> 00:59:05.960
or if you just can't avoid that problem.
00:59:05.960 --> 00:59:10.400
But you just have that on like all the time like that.
00:59:10.400 --> 00:59:10.840
Yeah.
00:59:10.840 --> 00:59:16.680
So there's like multiple versions of how the app store does their ads.
00:59:17.040 --> 00:59:19.520
But the like, I think the one I use is the basic one.
00:59:19.520 --> 00:59:20.360
Still, I think I messed.
00:59:20.360 --> 00:59:22.840
They have it a basic and advanced.
00:59:22.840 --> 00:59:25.080
But because of my situation being paid up front,
00:59:25.080 --> 00:59:29.480
having that really simple filter of like,
00:59:29.480 --> 00:59:32.600
you can just automatically bid me
00:59:32.600 --> 00:59:37.320
and you're going to do it based on, you know, likelihood
00:59:37.320 --> 00:59:39.800
that the person will click the ad because that makes Apple money.
00:59:39.800 --> 00:59:40.720
And then.
00:59:40.720 --> 00:59:44.480
And then that benefits me, that benefits Apple, like it's
00:59:44.560 --> 00:59:48.720
it kind of works out. But then there's those couple situations. Like I almost wish I could
00:59:48.720 --> 00:59:56.160
remove and maybe the advanced ones I could like if I could remove the keyword my actual app name,
00:59:56.160 --> 01:00:01.920
which funnily enough, I feel like most developers, that's their complaint is that they have to buy
01:00:01.920 --> 01:00:06.000
ads for their ad name so that competitors don't do the same.
01:00:06.000 --> 01:00:06.800
Yeah.
01:00:06.800 --> 01:00:10.080
But I almost wonder if it's like if they're searching for my ad name,
01:00:10.080 --> 01:00:12.000
I have a high intent customer right there.
01:00:12.000 --> 01:00:17.600
And that customer is worth way less than ad for that customer's worth way less to me
01:00:17.600 --> 01:00:21.600
than somebody else, because they're probably already coming for me.
01:00:21.600 --> 01:00:25.280
And are they really going to get distracted and click on somebody else?
01:00:25.280 --> 01:00:25.680
I don't know.
01:00:25.680 --> 01:00:26.240
Maybe they would.
01:00:26.240 --> 01:00:30.800
Like, I'm throwing a bunch of things out here with no actual research on this.
01:00:30.800 --> 01:00:34.960
So take none of this as, you know, tried and true advice here.
01:00:34.960 --> 01:00:39.760
But yeah, I mean, it takes a lot of like work to measure that stuff too.
01:00:39.760 --> 01:00:44.160
Like, yeah, like you kind of, you kind of like need infrastructure to do that.
01:00:44.160 --> 01:00:51.120
So that's, I, I forget, um, maybe it's the, uh, sub do you know the sub club podcast?
01:00:51.120 --> 01:00:51.600
Yes.
01:00:51.600 --> 01:00:53.200
Sub club is great.
01:00:53.200 --> 01:00:57.280
Uh, cause they actually know what they're talking about, um, around all these topics.
01:00:57.280 --> 01:00:58.080
Yeah.
01:00:58.080 --> 01:00:58.400
Yeah.
01:00:58.400 --> 01:01:03.440
I remember, I forget who the guest was, but he was saying like, oh yeah, like if you have like
01:01:03.440 --> 01:01:08.720
a small marketing budget and then like David Bernard, like stopped him and said, can you
01:01:08.720 --> 01:01:15.040
define small, please? Yeah. Like, um, and he's like, oh, like 20,000. And I was like,
01:01:15.040 --> 01:01:20.240
bro, that ain't small, right? Like, yeah, like, okay, maybe for like a bigger company. Sure.
01:01:20.240 --> 01:01:26.640
Yeah. Yeah. Um, cause, and he was like, yeah, for any developers, 20 grand to spend on ads is,
01:01:26.640 --> 01:01:33.840
that's a big ask right there. You know? It's such like, it's such a scary, even if you,
01:01:34.560 --> 01:01:40.880
if you figure out one of those magical funnel things where it's like, I put $1 in and I get $2
01:01:40.880 --> 01:01:45.200
out. Um, right. It's like, if you have a whole bunch of money that you're willing to lose,
01:01:45.200 --> 01:01:50.720
then sure. Pour $50,000 into that bucket and get a hundred thousand dollars out. But
01:01:50.720 --> 01:01:57.760
sure. If you don't have $50,000, uh, that you're willing to just throw away, if you did something
01:01:57.760 --> 01:02:03.440
wrong, it's like, that is really scary. Yeah. That's why I, yeah. And I think the podcast stuff
01:02:03.440 --> 01:02:09.920
is much better. I think another benefit of the podcast stuff, sponsorship, especially with like
01:02:09.920 --> 01:02:17.360
the podcast that I did sponsor was, I also felt like I've gotten so much value from those podcasts
01:02:17.360 --> 01:02:24.000
personally. I'm like, you know what, I'm happy to do this. Like I'm happy to sponsor this
01:02:24.000 --> 01:02:31.280
because I love these shows. And I've been listening for years. And it's like, this is great.
01:02:31.280 --> 01:02:35.600
you know, like, I feel like it's almost like a way of also giving back. It's not charity,
01:02:35.600 --> 01:02:39.760
I know that, but it's like, that's also like a factor with those things too.
01:02:39.760 --> 01:02:44.320
And I mean, it's kind of like, even though most of the time this isn't what it actually means,
01:02:44.320 --> 01:02:52.000
the term sponsor, right? Like, that's kind of the idea is like, in a way you're like,
01:02:52.000 --> 01:02:56.880
I want this to keep going and also I want to benefit too. And like, this benefits both of us.
01:02:58.400 --> 01:03:03.600
But yeah, there's a couple of shows I have on my radar in the same kind of vein where I'm like,
01:03:03.600 --> 01:03:11.200
you know, even if it doesn't work out, I just really like the people that run this and this
01:03:11.200 --> 01:03:18.240
show. And yeah, it's meant a lot to me. And so yeah, no, that's that's a good point. And that's
01:03:18.240 --> 01:03:24.080
a good reason to pick a show you like. And I feel like in your case with Sofa, especially,
01:03:24.640 --> 01:03:28.800
like your target market has to be not has to be I'm guessing is
01:03:28.800 --> 01:03:32.080
the exact type of people like Apple,
01:03:32.080 --> 01:03:37.200
Apple oriented productivity type people who are more likely to be listening
01:03:37.200 --> 01:03:40.680
to a daring fireball or connected or something like that
01:03:40.680 --> 01:03:46.080
are also more likely to be the type of people who want a dedicated,
01:03:46.080 --> 01:03:50.240
you know, rich Apple integration type app
01:03:50.240 --> 01:03:54.200
for tracking their movies and TV shows and podcasts. Yeah.
01:03:54.200 --> 01:04:01.680
And video games and board games video games and books and books. Yeah, I'm forgetting one
01:04:01.680 --> 01:04:05.220
Yeah, there might be another one in there. But yeah, there's there's a lot
01:04:05.220 --> 01:04:10.280
Yeah, I agree. I think yeah, it's it's a I think it's a good fit
01:04:10.280 --> 01:04:12.360
and
01:04:12.360 --> 01:04:15.600
I think like long-term it can definitely expand out and
01:04:15.600 --> 01:04:18.360
There can be ways to
01:04:18.360 --> 01:04:20.640
It's actually like a weirdly hard
01:04:20.640 --> 01:04:23.440
product to talk about because
01:04:23.440 --> 01:04:29.320
Because if you think I could go super specific and just talk about books, right?
01:04:29.320 --> 01:04:32.200
Or just talk about video games.
01:04:32.200 --> 01:04:33.900
Or I can go more broad, right?
01:04:33.900 --> 01:04:37.160
And say, "Oh, it helps you be more intentional with your downtime.
01:04:37.160 --> 01:04:38.720
And helps you organize your downtime."
01:04:38.720 --> 01:04:41.440
I love that phrasing, by the way.
01:04:41.440 --> 01:04:45.000
You say organizing your downtime, but the one I really like is the "be more intentional
01:04:45.000 --> 01:04:46.000
about your downtime."
01:04:46.000 --> 01:04:47.000
No, no.
01:04:47.000 --> 01:04:48.000
Yeah, you're right.
01:04:48.000 --> 01:04:51.480
That came out of writing the ad copy for the sponsors.
01:04:51.480 --> 01:04:52.480
Oh, interesting.
01:04:52.480 --> 01:04:58.940
So like to me, I've already gotten other benefits out of this where I wouldn't have sat down
01:04:58.940 --> 01:05:02.100
and wrote any of that stuff without this.
01:05:02.100 --> 01:05:06.420
So it made me think about the product in different ways.
01:05:06.420 --> 01:05:10.660
And I've always called it like a downtime organizer, which it is.
01:05:10.660 --> 01:05:14.380
But yeah, this phrase of like, it helps you be more intentional with your downtime because
01:05:14.380 --> 01:05:17.460
hey, however you want to use your downtime is cool, right?
01:05:17.460 --> 01:05:20.920
Like if you want to just go on YouTube and watch stuff, fine, right?
01:05:20.920 --> 01:05:24.160
If you want to go for a run, that's cool too.
01:05:24.160 --> 01:05:27.880
Like whatever, however you want to use your downtime is fine.
01:05:27.880 --> 01:05:30.360
But just be more intentional about it, right?
01:05:30.360 --> 01:05:33.800
Be intentional with like, "Yeah, I'm going to doom scroll for 20 minutes or an hour."
01:05:33.800 --> 01:05:34.960
Like that's fine.
01:05:34.960 --> 01:05:39.820
If that's what you need, like when we buy bags of Doritos here, like I eat the whole
01:05:39.820 --> 01:05:42.840
bag because it tastes really good.
01:05:42.840 --> 01:05:48.640
But I know in an hour it's going to be rough, you know?
01:05:48.640 --> 01:05:50.800
you made that you were intentional about it.
01:05:50.800 --> 01:05:52.320
- 100% intentional.
01:05:52.320 --> 01:05:54.600
I knew, like I'll say to my wife, I'm like,
01:05:54.600 --> 01:05:56.940
this is a bad idea, but I'm doing it, you know?
01:05:56.940 --> 01:05:58.280
- I feel like this is something,
01:05:58.280 --> 01:06:00.200
probably a lot of people listening to this,
01:06:00.200 --> 01:06:05.000
if they're also, you know, sort of indie, on the side,
01:06:05.000 --> 01:06:06.880
working on things type people.
01:06:06.880 --> 01:06:08.980
I know a lot of my friends are the same way,
01:06:08.980 --> 01:06:13.980
where it's like, we struggle with relaxing.
01:06:13.980 --> 01:06:18.080
It's not that we're always productive,
01:06:18.080 --> 01:06:21.640
It's that when we have time, like I know for me,
01:06:21.640 --> 01:06:25.620
when I'm in a rough spell with dark noise in particular,
01:06:25.620 --> 01:06:31.040
launch is easier because it's editing and doing this
01:06:31.040 --> 01:06:33.540
is like it pulls you through the process, right?
01:06:33.540 --> 01:06:34.920
Like I don't have a choice.
01:06:34.920 --> 01:06:36.540
I come out with a thing every other week
01:06:36.540 --> 01:06:37.500
and it pulls me through.
01:06:37.500 --> 01:06:40.240
But with dark noise, you have to show up,
01:06:40.240 --> 01:06:42.460
like you said earlier, and like do the thing.
01:06:42.460 --> 01:06:45.900
And sometimes I'm just like work depressed
01:06:45.900 --> 01:06:48.060
where I'm just like, I know I'm not gonna get anything
01:06:48.060 --> 01:06:51.580
done tonight, but I'm so frustrated that I haven't accomplished anything the last
01:06:51.580 --> 01:06:55.820
couple of days. I'll just open my laptop to will myself to do something and I'll
01:06:55.820 --> 01:07:00.140
just stare at it. And then the day will be over and I'm like, I should have
01:07:00.140 --> 01:07:05.740
played a game or watched an episode of whatever with my wife, because that's a
01:07:05.740 --> 01:07:10.340
thing that I enjoy and I'm not doing instead. I'm just making myself, you know,
01:07:10.340 --> 01:07:15.980
feel bad. Oh, it's so hard. And then you get into, and this is where something
01:07:15.980 --> 01:07:18.820
like Sofa really comes into play,
01:07:18.820 --> 01:07:21.980
where you are like, all right, I'm taking the tonight off.
01:07:21.980 --> 01:07:23.760
And then it feels so precious.
01:07:23.760 --> 01:07:26.500
Like anybody with kids will know this feeling too,
01:07:26.500 --> 01:07:28.640
of like, you have the night off
01:07:28.640 --> 01:07:30.840
'cause grandma has the kids and you're like, all right,
01:07:30.840 --> 01:07:33.400
every single thing we do has to be the best version
01:07:33.400 --> 01:07:35.060
that we've ever done of this thing.
01:07:35.060 --> 01:07:36.780
- All this pressure, yeah.
01:07:36.780 --> 01:07:38.380
- Yeah, you can't pick a restaurant
01:07:38.380 --> 01:07:39.900
and you're like trying to pick the best restaurant
01:07:39.900 --> 01:07:42.600
and then you spend an hour, you finally pick one,
01:07:42.600 --> 01:07:44.800
but you're not, neither person's satisfied with it.
01:07:44.800 --> 01:07:46.760
and then you call up and they're like,
01:07:46.760 --> 01:07:47.600
"Yeah, we don't have a table
01:07:47.600 --> 01:07:49.060
"'cause it's already seven o'clock."
01:07:49.060 --> 01:07:50.700
And you're like, "What did I do?"
01:07:50.700 --> 01:07:54.220
And having a list of,
01:07:54.220 --> 01:07:56.080
"Hey, these are some movies I wanna watch,
01:07:56.080 --> 01:07:57.940
"and I have two hours I can watch a movie,"
01:07:57.940 --> 01:07:59.920
and just pick one from that list.
01:07:59.920 --> 01:08:00.760
Huh. - Yeah.
01:08:00.760 --> 01:08:04.880
- It's like the most first world of problems to describe,
01:08:04.880 --> 01:08:08.040
but my goodness, does it make a big difference.
01:08:08.040 --> 01:08:09.240
- Yeah. - 'Cause then you actually
01:08:09.240 --> 01:08:12.720
do the thing that you wanted to with your downtime.
01:08:12.720 --> 01:08:16.880
Almost like when you explain it, it's like, that's it?
01:08:16.880 --> 01:08:18.080
It's like, that's the idea?
01:08:18.080 --> 01:08:19.440
It's like, yeah, that's it.
01:08:19.440 --> 01:08:21.040
It's pretty simple, you know?
01:08:21.040 --> 01:08:24.000
It's like, it's amazing how just keeping a list
01:08:24.000 --> 01:08:26.200
of something can be a great tool.
01:08:26.200 --> 01:08:30.000
- 'Cause watching a movie is so much better
01:08:30.000 --> 01:08:33.480
than scrolling Netflix for the same amount of time
01:08:33.480 --> 01:08:34.760
that you could have watched a movie.
01:08:34.760 --> 01:08:36.480
- Yeah, yeah.
01:08:36.480 --> 01:08:38.440
- Now Blockbuster, that's different.
01:08:38.440 --> 01:08:41.200
I would argue that the time I spent walking up
01:08:41.200 --> 01:08:43.200
down the aisles in Blockbuster back in the day.
01:08:43.200 --> 01:08:46.040
That was valuable, intentional time, right?
01:08:46.040 --> 01:08:49.360
- Dude, that's a great, that's a great like comparison.
01:08:49.360 --> 01:08:50.680
I never thought about that.
01:08:50.680 --> 01:08:54.080
But yeah, going to Blockbuster was, that was awesome.
01:08:54.080 --> 01:08:56.320
That'd be like Friday night, Saturday night,
01:08:56.320 --> 01:08:58.320
like yes, we're going to Blockbuster.
01:08:58.320 --> 01:08:59.160
Oh my God, yeah.
01:08:59.160 --> 01:09:00.400
- For one, you're wearing pants, right?
01:09:00.400 --> 01:09:02.260
You're not in your living room.
01:09:02.260 --> 01:09:05.240
- Wait, are you wearing pants right now?
01:09:05.240 --> 01:09:06.080
Yeah.
01:09:06.080 --> 01:09:07.040
- Right, yeah.
01:09:07.040 --> 01:09:08.920
The benefit of Zoom, right?
01:09:08.920 --> 01:09:11.320
I thought this was the no pants podcast.
01:09:11.320 --> 01:09:12.240
No, okay.
01:09:12.240 --> 01:09:13.080
Yeah.
01:09:13.080 --> 01:09:14.720
(laughing)
01:09:14.720 --> 01:09:18.420
No, this is not a Curtis Herbert's show.
01:09:18.420 --> 01:09:20.800
What was it called?
01:09:20.800 --> 01:09:22.000
What was the name of it?
01:09:22.000 --> 01:09:24.200
Yeah, I forget too, but I know what you're talking about.
01:09:24.200 --> 01:09:25.040
Wow, I'm struggling.
01:09:25.040 --> 01:09:27.000
But anyway, no, I am wearing pants,
01:09:27.000 --> 01:09:28.600
just so we're all clear here.
01:09:28.600 --> 01:09:29.440
Blockbuster.
01:09:29.440 --> 01:09:31.720
But yeah, Blockbuster, Blockbuster, good times.
01:09:31.720 --> 01:09:34.860
Man, I know I've said it like three times this episode,
01:09:34.860 --> 01:09:37.760
but you are really getting late night rambling, Charlie.
01:09:37.760 --> 01:09:38.820
Yeah, I like it.
01:09:38.820 --> 01:09:41.280
- I like it, make it weird man, you know?
01:09:41.280 --> 01:09:42.860
Life is short, just get weird with it.
01:09:42.860 --> 01:09:44.460
- It's good to have these every once in a while.
01:09:44.460 --> 01:09:45.900
- Yes, yes.
01:09:45.900 --> 01:09:49.180
- Yeah, okay, so podcast sponsorships, good.
01:09:49.180 --> 01:09:50.300
Good for lots of reasons.
01:09:50.300 --> 01:09:52.380
You feel like the Roy was good,
01:09:52.380 --> 01:09:55.260
the Ebitduh, dud, it's Ebits.
01:09:55.260 --> 01:10:00.060
- It was Ebitin all day, yeah.
01:10:00.060 --> 01:10:03.660
- No, I think that's the main thing.
01:10:03.660 --> 01:10:07.100
Are there other things that you do as far as
01:10:07.100 --> 01:10:13.460
marketing goes, I feel like sofa has a, like it has that presence and maybe
01:10:13.460 --> 01:10:17.280
this is brand marketing is kind of how it gets there, but it's like, yeah, in
01:10:17.280 --> 01:10:22.580
my head, it's sort of like, it is the app for this space that I think of when I
01:10:22.580 --> 01:10:24.300
think, oh, I want to track some new thing.
01:10:24.300 --> 01:10:26.300
It's like, that's where I go to like, think about it.
01:10:26.300 --> 01:10:29.740
Um, and of course your website is beautiful.
01:10:29.740 --> 01:10:30.580
Anybody who.
01:10:30.580 --> 01:10:31.900
Hey, thanks.
01:10:31.900 --> 01:10:36.900
Wants to make a, uh, like app, a website one, prepare yourself.
01:10:36.900 --> 01:10:38.660
You're not probably, if you're not a designer,
01:10:38.660 --> 01:10:41.380
you're probably not gonna pull off what you've done
01:10:41.380 --> 01:10:45.060
over probably a long period of time with SofaHQ.com,
01:10:45.060 --> 01:10:50.060
but it's just ripe with ideas you can steal.
01:10:50.060 --> 01:10:51.780
I'll just say that 'cause I know
01:10:51.780 --> 01:10:53.860
I've certainly stolen ideas from it.
01:10:53.860 --> 01:10:57.180
- Oh my God, I've never had an original idea in my life.
01:10:57.180 --> 01:10:59.260
Like everything is stolen, right?
01:10:59.260 --> 01:11:02.140
Like, you know, you've seen that video,
01:11:02.140 --> 01:11:03.580
Everything's a Remix, right?
01:11:03.580 --> 01:11:05.300
Like that's kind of a story.
01:11:05.300 --> 01:11:06.380
I mean, but it's so true.
01:11:06.380 --> 01:11:07.860
Like you just build on each other,
01:11:07.860 --> 01:11:10.060
even if you have no idea you're doing that, you know?
01:11:10.060 --> 01:11:11.140
So it's totally fine.
01:11:11.140 --> 01:11:12.740
Steal away, you're good.
01:11:12.740 --> 01:11:15.580
- Right, we're talking about generative AI now, right?
01:11:15.580 --> 01:11:16.900
- That's right, yeah.
01:11:16.900 --> 01:11:17.860
(both laughing)
01:11:17.860 --> 01:11:20.260
- Okay, I'm gonna stop that tangent
01:11:20.260 --> 01:11:22.260
before I start going down that one.
01:11:22.260 --> 01:11:26.180
- Ooh, that could be, yeah, that's quite a topic
01:11:26.180 --> 01:11:27.260
that we could go very deep on.
01:11:27.260 --> 01:11:29.980
- It is, well, the last episode was literally about that.
01:11:29.980 --> 01:11:30.820
- I just listened to that today.
01:11:30.820 --> 01:11:32.380
- Came out just the other day.
01:11:32.380 --> 01:11:33.640
Nice, nice.
01:11:33.640 --> 01:11:35.760
Yes, I told you I'm a fan of the show, man.
01:11:35.760 --> 01:11:37.480
It's a good show, I like it.
01:11:37.480 --> 01:11:40.160
- Okay, so before I wrap up,
01:11:40.160 --> 01:11:42.900
there's one other little thing I had in here,
01:11:42.900 --> 01:11:46.140
which is like, I guess this is related to marketing,
01:11:46.140 --> 01:11:48.600
so we'll just say this is part of that same topic.
01:11:48.600 --> 01:11:50.200
- Sure. - Do you find yourself
01:11:50.200 --> 01:11:55.400
counter-positioning to what the big players
01:11:55.400 --> 01:11:57.200
in each of these spaces are doing?
01:11:57.200 --> 01:11:59.420
'Cause you have movie tracking,
01:11:59.420 --> 01:12:02.240
and there's obviously IMDb or Letterboxd
01:12:02.240 --> 01:12:05.800
or something like that, or like Goodreads for books
01:12:05.800 --> 01:12:10.160
or something like that, or do you kind of treat it like,
01:12:10.160 --> 01:12:12.560
no, this is a totally separate thing from those,
01:12:12.560 --> 01:12:15.540
this is sort of an all-in-one place for all of your stuff?
01:12:15.540 --> 01:12:18.000
Like, I'm just curious how you approach that.
01:12:18.000 --> 01:12:19.480
- I don't want this to sound rude at all,
01:12:19.480 --> 01:12:22.520
I don't mean this to be rude in any way, shape, or form,
01:12:22.520 --> 01:12:25.320
but I really don't pay attention to those apps.
01:12:25.320 --> 01:12:30.880
The person that I have in mind
01:12:30.880 --> 01:12:33.920
and the person that I am kind of thinking
01:12:33.920 --> 01:12:38.520
that SOFA is really for is the person who is,
01:12:38.520 --> 01:12:41.080
they're already keeping these lists.
01:12:41.080 --> 01:12:45.400
They already do this, but they use Apple Notes, right?
01:12:45.400 --> 01:12:46.640
Or reminders.
01:12:46.640 --> 01:12:48.360
And it's like, hey, that's cool.
01:12:48.360 --> 01:12:51.360
That's cool you're doing that, but this is way better.
01:12:51.360 --> 01:12:54.320
This is so much better than that.
01:12:54.320 --> 01:12:58.800
And that's the person that I'm really focused on
01:12:58.800 --> 01:13:03.800
because I think the type of,
01:13:03.800 --> 01:13:09.660
when I think about the type of app that I think SoFi is,
01:13:09.660 --> 01:13:11.660
or I want it to be aspirationally,
01:13:11.660 --> 01:13:15.920
I think it's this weird mix between
01:13:15.920 --> 01:13:19.400
the kind of simplicity and experience
01:13:19.400 --> 01:13:21.300
of something like Apple Notes,
01:13:21.300 --> 01:13:25.280
but to have the power and the flexibility
01:13:25.280 --> 01:13:27.620
of something like a spreadsheet.
01:13:27.620 --> 01:13:30.340
And I love spreadsheets.
01:13:30.340 --> 01:13:32.540
Like for people who know spreadsheets,
01:13:32.540 --> 01:13:36.620
like they understand like why people love spreadsheets
01:13:36.620 --> 01:13:38.860
'cause they're infinitely flexible
01:13:38.860 --> 01:13:40.700
and you can kind of do anything in there.
01:13:40.700 --> 01:13:43.100
Like spreadsheets literally run the world.
01:13:43.100 --> 01:13:44.680
Like the world runs on spreadsheets.
01:13:44.680 --> 01:13:47.060
It's unbelievable. - Oh yeah.
01:13:47.060 --> 01:13:49.920
- But the experience of like editing those spreadsheets,
01:13:49.920 --> 01:13:51.740
like it kind of sucks, right?
01:13:51.740 --> 01:13:53.580
Like you gotta set everything up.
01:13:53.580 --> 01:13:55.180
It's like very tedious.
01:13:55.180 --> 01:13:57.820
So I'm trying to, I think there's this middle ground
01:13:57.820 --> 01:14:01.020
between like a great design
01:14:01.020 --> 01:14:03.220
and great experience of using the thing
01:14:03.220 --> 01:14:07.820
without it feeling like this big intimidating spreadsheet,
01:14:07.820 --> 01:14:09.940
but it also has a ton of flexibility.
01:14:09.940 --> 01:14:12.700
So that's really what I'm going for.
01:14:12.700 --> 01:14:14.340
And there's a lot of people today
01:14:14.340 --> 01:14:16.820
who track this stuff in spreadsheets too, right?
01:14:16.820 --> 01:14:20.300
Like, and like, you can go on YouTube,
01:14:20.300 --> 01:14:23.620
people make these amazing spreadsheets of like,
01:14:23.620 --> 01:14:24.860
here's all the books I read this year
01:14:24.860 --> 01:14:26.220
and it has all these stats and stuff.
01:14:26.220 --> 01:14:27.980
Like it's so, it's amazing.
01:14:27.980 --> 01:14:29.220
It's so incredible. - Oh, wow.
01:14:29.220 --> 01:14:30.260
- Yeah.
01:14:30.260 --> 01:14:34.300
So like I'm more interested in the person
01:14:34.300 --> 01:14:36.980
who is tracking stuff in Apple Notes today
01:14:36.980 --> 01:14:40.420
and the person who's like making a custom spreadsheet.
01:14:40.420 --> 01:14:43.220
Right, like I think those are really interesting
01:14:43.220 --> 01:14:47.100
and long-term I'd like to kind of bridge the gap there.
01:14:47.100 --> 01:14:50.880
And I think those other services, they're awesome, right?
01:14:50.880 --> 01:14:53.980
And they're for very specific people
01:14:53.980 --> 01:14:57.900
But I don't really see Soph as like competing with them.
01:14:57.900 --> 01:15:01.340
I see them as more of like maybe a companion
01:15:01.340 --> 01:15:03.380
in different ways, you know?
01:15:03.380 --> 01:15:04.460
- That makes sense.
01:15:04.460 --> 01:15:05.300
- Yeah.
01:15:05.300 --> 01:15:06.140
- I like that.
01:15:06.140 --> 01:15:06.960
- Yeah.
01:15:06.960 --> 01:15:10.980
- Cool, okay, well, before I wrap this up then,
01:15:10.980 --> 01:15:14.220
I'll ask you the question I ask everybody in the show,
01:15:14.220 --> 01:15:16.100
which is what is a person or people out there
01:15:16.100 --> 01:15:19.740
that have inspired you that you'd recommend others check out?
01:15:19.740 --> 01:15:21.220
- Yeah, I have a list.
01:15:21.220 --> 01:15:22.980
I have five people.
01:15:22.980 --> 01:15:29.760
five people. So first person is this, this guy's actually, he was the original
01:15:29.760 --> 01:15:36.040
developer on Sofa. So Oliver Pfeffer, he's just, he's an amazing, amazing iOS
01:15:36.040 --> 01:15:41.580
developer. He's still, we're great friends. And the amount that I have
01:15:41.580 --> 01:15:46.560
learned from him over the years is just, it's just incredible. The dude's super
01:15:46.560 --> 01:15:53.440
smart. And he's one of those people who like is not, he's not like, um, he's not
01:15:53.440 --> 01:15:57.320
very active on social media. Like you're not going to see all these posts from
01:15:57.320 --> 01:16:00.840
him and stuff like that. And there's so many people like that who were just
01:16:00.840 --> 01:16:04.440
killing it. They're just like so good at what they do, but they don't necessarily
01:16:04.440 --> 01:16:10.600
talk about what they do. Right? It's the Twitter's not real life meme on Twitter.
01:16:10.600 --> 01:16:16.440
Yeah, 100% right. Yeah. But I like, I just, I've learned so much from him.
01:16:16.440 --> 01:16:23.380
him and still continue to learn so much from him. So he's amazing. The next four people
01:16:23.380 --> 01:16:29.000
are the reason I want to highlight these people are because they are the people I learned
01:16:29.000 --> 01:16:38.040
the most from when I was first starting out with iOS development back in 2017. So Meng
01:16:38.040 --> 01:16:41.800
too of design and code.
01:16:41.800 --> 01:16:50.340
So he was like the perfect bridge for me because he's a designer and he knew how to explain
01:16:50.340 --> 01:16:52.760
development concepts to a designer.
01:16:52.760 --> 01:16:54.980
I'm like, "Oh yeah, thank you.
01:16:54.980 --> 01:16:57.080
Now I understand how delegation works, right?
01:16:57.080 --> 01:16:58.880
Like that makes total sense now, right?"
01:16:58.880 --> 01:17:03.640
Whereas before I'm like, "I have no idea what this even means."
01:17:03.640 --> 01:17:11.420
So his stuff is amazing, design and code, and he's still doing great work.
01:17:11.420 --> 01:17:16.580
Mark Mojkins, I don't know if I'm saying his name correctly, but he has a YouTube channel,
01:17:16.580 --> 01:17:17.580
Big Mountain Studio.
01:17:17.580 --> 01:17:23.780
I think he does a lot of like SwiftUI stuff now, but also someone who has good way of
01:17:23.780 --> 01:17:28.380
explaining things to beginners when it comes to iOS development.
01:17:28.380 --> 01:17:31.380
Because I'm sure there's a lot of people who listen to the show who are like, "I want to
01:17:31.380 --> 01:17:32.380
do this.
01:17:32.380 --> 01:17:39.260
iOS development. And these are great people to, to like learn from. They have tons of free content
01:17:39.260 --> 01:17:44.380
out there and stuff. It's amazing. Uh, Sean Allen has another one. He's another one on YouTube.
01:17:44.380 --> 01:17:53.660
Great stuff. First, very like literally when I was told that I could switch over to an iOS team
01:17:53.660 --> 01:18:00.620
in 20, well, this would have been the end of 2018. And, uh, I was like, this is amazing. I'm so
01:18:00.620 --> 01:18:06.940
excited I need to figure out what any of it is. I downloaded Xcode, went to BreadCo, which is
01:18:06.940 --> 01:18:13.900
Panera, but St. Louis here. And, uh, it's called, long story, anyway, the very first thing I watched
01:18:13.900 --> 01:18:17.820
was the Sean Allen video. And I don't know why, but it was, it was about whether you should have,
01:18:17.820 --> 01:18:23.660
it was storyboards versus, uh, oh yeah. Like, uh, like developing kit. What is the word?
01:18:23.660 --> 01:18:30.060
I didn't know what storyboards were or what UI kit was. Well, I probably knew what UI kit was
01:18:30.060 --> 01:18:35.500
at that point. But like, that was the level of basicness that I had. And that video, like,
01:18:35.500 --> 01:18:41.260
it sounds silly, but it's like, it established that this is a debate in the world. And like,
01:18:41.260 --> 01:18:45.740
that it was so helpful. So yeah, also a hard second on Sean Allen there.
01:18:45.740 --> 01:18:50.060
Yeah, yeah, great stuff. And the last one is, I mean, you've heard this one a million times,
01:18:50.060 --> 01:18:55.260
but like Paul Hudson, just the number of times his site still comes out when like I search
01:18:55.260 --> 01:19:04.220
Swiss stuff is just like wild. Yeah, just another, he just, he knows how to explain stuff to people.
01:19:04.220 --> 01:19:04.460
Right.
01:19:04.460 --> 01:19:09.100
And yeah. So, I'm just so thankful to all these people because
01:19:09.100 --> 01:19:15.500
I, you know, SoFa wouldn't exist without them, to be honest. So, very, very, very thankful for that.
01:19:15.500 --> 01:19:24.460
Yeah. And you're contributing to that sort of broad ecosystem of things, you know, learning,
01:19:24.460 --> 01:19:31.100
watching people work. Like you said, Paul Hudson, I feel like his live streams that he does
01:19:31.100 --> 01:19:32.700
are... Yes.
01:19:32.700 --> 01:19:39.340
That's the closest I've ever gotten to... The first job I had with iOS, we did pairing all
01:19:39.340 --> 01:19:43.340
the time. So I got to literally just sit with somebody who actually knew what they were doing
01:19:43.340 --> 01:19:45.100
and like... That's awesome.
01:19:45.100 --> 01:19:49.980
Watch how they moved the cursor around. You know what I mean? It's those little things that you
01:19:49.980 --> 01:19:53.640
You just, books don't teach you that.
01:19:53.640 --> 01:19:55.560
And even most tutorials that are trying
01:19:55.560 --> 01:19:56.680
to teach you about concepts,
01:19:56.680 --> 01:19:57.720
that's not what they're focused on
01:19:57.720 --> 01:19:59.560
because like, why would they be?
01:19:59.560 --> 01:20:01.360
But Paul Hudson's live streams,
01:20:01.360 --> 01:20:03.440
and I know other people do these too,
01:20:03.440 --> 01:20:07.180
surprisingly amazing because you're like,
01:20:07.180 --> 01:20:08.540
what did he just do?
01:20:08.540 --> 01:20:09.880
And he's like fumble, you know,
01:20:09.880 --> 01:20:11.080
he had a typo or something
01:20:11.080 --> 01:20:12.200
and then he fixed it the certain way
01:20:12.200 --> 01:20:13.320
and you're like, whoa.
01:20:13.320 --> 01:20:17.840
That kind of stuff I feel like is super valuable too.
01:20:17.840 --> 01:20:18.980
- Yeah, learning through video.
01:20:18.980 --> 01:20:23.620
like you're hitting on it, like so many articles
01:20:23.620 --> 01:20:27.600
will either, you know, maybe inadvertently
01:20:27.600 --> 01:20:30.800
or do it on purpose, make assumptions that,
01:20:30.800 --> 01:20:33.040
I don't need to say this thing 'cause this person will know.
01:20:33.040 --> 01:20:33.880
- Yeah.
01:20:33.880 --> 01:20:35.900
- And then you go, I feel like I'm missing something here.
01:20:35.900 --> 01:20:37.080
I don't really get it.
01:20:37.080 --> 01:20:38.820
But when you have to watch someone do a video,
01:20:38.820 --> 01:20:41.380
it's harder for them to just like skip over it.
01:20:41.380 --> 01:20:42.660
Like they have to do it.
01:20:42.660 --> 01:20:44.020
So the video stuff is great.
01:20:44.020 --> 01:20:46.820
- Right, well, and it's a delicate balance, right?
01:20:46.820 --> 01:20:49.540
because it's like when you do know those things,
01:20:49.540 --> 01:20:51.860
it's infuriating sitting through a video
01:20:51.860 --> 01:20:53.460
of somebody doing that thing.
01:20:53.460 --> 01:20:54.780
But then when you don't,
01:20:54.780 --> 01:20:58.500
so it's like Apple, like WWDC videos are,
01:20:58.500 --> 01:21:01.660
I feel like the example of video where it's like,
01:21:01.660 --> 01:21:03.340
even when they're typing code,
01:21:03.340 --> 01:21:07.500
like that is so rehearsed to the point of extremism
01:21:07.500 --> 01:21:09.380
that you're not gonna get any of those things.
01:21:09.380 --> 01:21:11.820
But you also wouldn't want it in that context.
01:21:11.820 --> 01:21:12.640
- Yeah.
01:21:12.640 --> 01:21:15.940
Do you wanna go another hour on Apple's documentation?
01:21:15.940 --> 01:21:23.540
Oh my goodness. I think what you meant was a hacking with swift.com. It's great. It's
01:21:23.540 --> 01:21:31.020
a wonderful documentation. Incredibly well done. Yeah, I have. Yeah. Weird thoughts about
01:21:31.020 --> 01:21:37.020
that. Coming. I came from the Microsoft world and I used to complain about, you know, MSDN
01:21:37.020 --> 01:21:41.640
and their, their documentation and coming over to Apple world. The very first thing
01:21:41.640 --> 01:21:50.200
was, "Holy cow, all of the bloggers and third party people in this space are amazing."
01:21:50.200 --> 01:21:56.760
Like, I've never... You go to Hacking with Swift and at the top it says, "This was updated...
01:21:56.760 --> 01:22:01.400
Last updated two months ago." And you're like, "Oh my gosh, they update their blog posts? What
01:22:01.400 --> 01:22:07.480
is that?" I never experienced that before. But then I think in part, the reason why maybe is
01:22:07.480 --> 01:22:13.560
there's a huge gap when it comes to Apple's documentation itself, especially if you're
01:22:13.560 --> 01:22:20.680
doing the audio APIs or some of these older, maybe less loved areas. Oh, that's a good point.
01:22:20.680 --> 01:22:21.480
Oh, man.
01:22:21.480 --> 01:22:27.720
I feel like you're sort of digging through history with Apple Docs a lot of times because
01:22:27.720 --> 01:22:33.320
you open up a page and you're like, "Oh, this is from this era because it's a totally different
01:22:33.320 --> 01:22:39.240
design and it looks super weird and you're like this one will actually tell me stuff but
01:22:39.240 --> 01:22:46.520
most of it will be out of date and that's kind of the the balancing act so yeah oh my yeah
01:22:46.520 --> 01:22:53.960
i'm like i'm trying to resist temptation here ollie a couple years ago i remember i i said
01:22:53.960 --> 01:23:00.200
something like off the cuff like oh yeah i did check like uh crash reports in uh app store connect
01:23:00.840 --> 01:23:04.760
He's like, "Why? Why are you doing that? You could do it in Xcode." I was like, "Oh,
01:23:04.760 --> 01:23:10.360
hell." And he showed me. I'm like, "Well, how was I going to find that?" Right? Like,
01:23:10.360 --> 01:23:16.520
how was I going to know to go dig into this menu and find the organize, you know, window?
01:23:16.520 --> 01:23:22.120
And then, "Oh, that's where I get my crash reports." It's like, "What?" It just, yeah.
01:23:22.120 --> 01:23:25.000
There's just like so many. And it's very big, right? Which is fine.
01:23:25.000 --> 01:23:27.560
Yeah. It's huge. And old, you know, in terms of...
01:23:27.560 --> 01:23:29.800
- And old, yeah, totally, yeah.
01:23:29.800 --> 01:23:33.160
But there is the education stuff
01:23:33.160 --> 01:23:35.160
or just general documentation is,
01:23:35.160 --> 01:23:36.920
it's a little rough for sure.
01:23:36.920 --> 01:23:40.680
- We have a gluttony of options of really high quality
01:23:40.680 --> 01:23:44.080
and polished stuff from NotApple.
01:23:44.080 --> 01:23:45.040
So, you know.
01:23:45.040 --> 01:23:46.320
- Yeah, agreed.
01:23:46.320 --> 01:23:47.680
- Win some, you lose some.
01:23:47.680 --> 01:23:50.640
All right, well, I will actually wrap this up.
01:23:50.640 --> 01:23:53.800
Thank you for you joining the show
01:23:53.800 --> 01:23:56.560
and for anybody listening who's listened to me
01:23:56.560 --> 01:24:02.160
ramble through this this whole way. Selfishly, this has been one of these
01:24:02.160 --> 01:24:05.860
episodes that I just really enjoy because I have a couple notes even for
01:24:05.860 --> 01:24:10.360
myself of like, ooh, I should try that after after I get off this call. So
01:24:10.360 --> 01:24:16.160
yeah, I I really appreciate you coming on and this was loads of fun. Dude.
01:24:16.160 --> 01:24:20.460
Thanks for having me that like I'm not kidding. Like I'm genuinely honored to
01:24:20.460 --> 01:24:25.260
be on this. I've been listening to this podcast since you first started it.
01:24:25.260 --> 01:24:34.260
I love it. Like it's super well done and what you've put together here, I would say pretty quickly.
01:24:34.260 --> 01:24:41.260
Like it has not been a long time that you've been doing this. And super high quality, great conversations.
01:24:41.260 --> 01:24:47.260
And being a host on something is hard. It's really hard. And I think you do a great job.
01:24:47.260 --> 01:24:51.260
So I thank you for continuing to do this and thanks for having me on.
01:24:51.260 --> 01:24:55.340
I think the only hard part is convincing smart people
01:24:55.340 --> 01:24:58.080
to come on and then I just get to like poke
01:24:58.080 --> 01:25:00.880
and let all the smart stuff come out.
01:25:00.880 --> 01:25:04.680
So getting somebody like you is the only reason
01:25:04.680 --> 01:25:06.200
this whole thing works, so thank you.
01:25:06.200 --> 01:25:08.600
- Well, I hope I don't lose you subscribers.
01:25:08.600 --> 01:25:11.760
Hopefully the numbers don't go down.
01:25:11.760 --> 01:25:13.240
As long as they stay even for you.
01:25:13.240 --> 01:25:16.840
- The jury's out on what your Roy will be, but we'll see.
01:25:16.840 --> 01:25:18.560
- Yeah, you should do that.
01:25:18.560 --> 01:25:24.760
You should post everyone's Roy at the end of just shame people, you know, be perfect.
01:25:24.760 --> 01:25:29.840
Brilliant. Yeah. All right. Well, I'll let you go, but seriously, thanks again. This
01:25:29.840 --> 01:25:36.080
is this is so much fun. Thank you. Have a good one.
01:25:36.080 --> 01:25:40.800
Thanks for listening. This episode was edited by Jonathan Ruiz. If you'd like to discuss
01:25:40.800 --> 01:25:45.920
the show, you can find me on Twitter at underscore Chuckie C or tweet the show directly at Launched
01:25:45.920 --> 01:25:51.040
I'd really appreciate a rating or review in your podcast app of choice.
01:25:51.040 --> 01:25:54.920
And you can find show notes and more at LaunchedFM.com
01:25:54.920 --> 01:26:14.600
*Upbeat Music*