51: Crouton - Devin Davies


Autogenerated by MacWhisper

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Welcome to Launched. I'm Charlie Chapman, and today I'm excited to bring you the developer

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behind the wonderful recipe app, Crouton, Devin Davies.

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Devin, welcome to the show.

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Thanks for having me.

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I am super excited about this one. People who know me know that I spent a little while

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going through a lot of recipe apps. Probably a lot of people, I'm sure, will get into this. But

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I came off of one app that's been around for a very long time, and then maybe was ready to try

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some other things. And it turns out there's a bunch of really cool apps. I've interviewed some

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of them here. Crouton is one that I have fallen in love with. There's a lot of little details that

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that I'm sure we're going to get into that I just find very, very delightful in a way

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that's very satisfying.

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And so I'm really happy to have you on finally to kind of talk about this.

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I appreciate that.

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Thank you.

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So before we get into Crouton itself, though, I want to give everyone a background on who

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you are.

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So the first question or the questions I always ask everybody is, where are you from?

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Do you have a formal education related to what you do?

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And then we can talk about your career leading up to Crouton.

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I'm from Christchurch, New Zealand.

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You might be able to tell from the accent.

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I grew up in a smaller town outside of Christchurch called Kaiapoi, which probably no one's heard

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of, but they have more cafes per capita than any other town in the world, I'm sure.

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I'm just assuming it looks exactly like Lord of the Rings, but with more cafes and Taika

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Waititi running around.

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That's right.

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Yeah, and we take boat everywhere.

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I threw in all my knowledge, all just thrown in there at once.

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sheep. There's lots of sheep, right? Yeah, plenty of sheep. Yeah. So it's, it's a good place. It's

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pretty, I would like terrible holiday destination. Um, if you're coming to New Zealand, don't come

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to Christchurch. Um, but it's a great place to live. Oh, there's just nothing to do. It's very,

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it's flat and quiet. So if you want a relaxing chill holiday, then maybe it's a good place.

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And you like coffee. Yeah. If you want to see me, then it's, it's, it's literally the best

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place in the world for that. Yes, yeah, you'd be hard-pressed to find me anywhere else.

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But it's a good landing pad. We're pretty close to like Queenstown and Lake Tikapau and all these

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touristy destinations. So you normally fly into Christchurch and then drive out as quickly as you

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can. But then that gives you quick access to them for like a weekend trip or something like that.

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Yeah, that's true. Definitely very lucky to have lots of super nice spots close by.

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So it's not all bad. Nice. Let's talk about like your education then. Did you

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decide early on you wanted to get into app development or something like that?

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So originally I, when I was a teenager, I, my dad's work had an old CSX Photoshop license.

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They didn't need any more. So I got a legal copy of all of the creative suite. And so I started,

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I was kind of into photography originally. And then that kind of morphed into just using

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Photoshop to do a whole bunch of different vector things. And so, I thought for a while that I

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wanted to be a graphic designer. I don't know what it's like in the US though, but I think here that

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can be a tougher industry to get into. Oh, yeah.

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To do well in. Yeah. And so, my dad, who's a software developer, kind of, I guess, sort of

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suggested that maybe I give this a go. And I'd always been, I guess, like Apple obsessed.

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I remember unboxing an iMac, a pink iMac G3 at primary school. And I think that was my first

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kind of like interaction with an Apple product. And it's like, yep, I like whoever made this.

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And so I think kind of ever since then, I've like always before they used to live stream the events,

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me and my brother would, we'd stay up all night for some reason. And then at 5:00 AM,

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which is when they start in New Zealand, we'd watch the live blogs and then go to school.

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Oh, those were, those were good times. Those were fun ways to consume those keynotes. That

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sounds weird saying it like that, but it definitely had a different feel to it.

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Yeah, yeah, you're getting it, I guess, through someone else's perspective. I don't know,

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it was always good to have a few tabs open in case one of them went down and you needed to

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jump between different.

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Well, that's, I've probably said it here before, but that's the original reason I joined Twitter.

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Because of all places, Woot, if you've ever heard of Woot, that was probably an American thing.

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It was one of those like daily deals sites, but their whole shtick was,

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they wrote like really fun, like they had comedy art or comedians on staff to write these crazy

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descriptions of whatever their deal of the day was. And for some reason, Woot would live blog

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Apple keynotes on Twitter specifically. And on Twitter, you could sign up to have it,

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you know, send them as text messages to your phone. And when I learned that they did that,

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I was like, "Oh, while I'm in class," this was when I was in college, "I can get those on my

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phone and I can keep up with the live blog." But they're making jokes. Like, it's literally just

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jokes, but I could at least be like, oh, they announced a new laptop or they announced a new

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thing. You get a rough idea of what's happening. Yeah. Yeah. So it was like the weirdest way to

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keep up with the keynote, but, uh, but there you go. So that's, that's why I started out on Twitter.

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Yeah. I think it'd be hard to go back now, now that we've got the live streams and especially

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the super polished video events going back to just like a text feed. I think I'd probably struggle,

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but back in the day it was like highlight of the year. Oh yeah. Yeah. So you went into,

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Did you go to university then for this? Yeah. So, from after high school, I went to

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Canterbury University and did a computer science degree. In retrospect, I don't know that you

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definitely don't need to do that. There's a lot of stuff I think that I had to learn that hasn't

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been that useful, but it also gives you a good idea of, I guess, like the deeper levels of the

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way things work. So, you can make some better decisions, even though most of the time when

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we're programming, we're sort of at a much higher level these days than some of the things they

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teach you at university. I guess it's good to have an appreciation of those things,

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But I definitely felt like for the first two years of uni, when it was a lot of that theory that

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I really just didn't have a clue what I was doing. Like I could do enough to pass the

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papers and things, but it didn't really click. And I was sort of unsure if I'd made the right call.

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Yeah, it's sort of a weird thing with college versions of computer science where it's like,

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and maybe this is just people like us who are more into the, well, like you said,

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the graphic design side of things. But like, building apps is like fun. Like, I know people

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who do like those Swift UI tutorial things and they're not planning to make a career out of it.

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They just like, it's kind of an addicting fun thing. But I never once in college until maybe

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like later when I was doing senior project type stuff, got into that like addicting flow with,

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because it was all like, learn how to, you know, do this database query and make it, you know,

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this time, this amount faster, deal with big O notation or whatever. And it's like,

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those are probably good to have, but it would be nice, especially in the early

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stages for it to have that like addicting piece. And then you love on the necessary, you know,

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your vegetables to go with the candy, I guess.

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That's right. Yeah. Cause I, like, I just wanted to make buttons look nice. And so when you're

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having to do all this extra stuff, it's a bit, bit much. But in my third year, we had this like

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full year group project, uh, where we built an app to view the America's cup, um, feed,

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cause they had, it's like a live API. So you could pull in the boats where they were and

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plot them on a map, the America's cup. And then you said boats. See, I don't,

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I don't even know what that is. Or maybe I do. Should I know what that is?

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It's got America in the title. I know. I wasn't aware of what it was until the group project,

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but now I'm vaguely aware that it involves boats and competition.

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Okay. Some kind of race then, I guess. Yeah. They race boats, particular kind of boats around

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lakes. I'm going to do a terrible job of explaining what it is because I just wanted to

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make buttons look pretty. In typical fashion, I've already derailed this into the least important

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part of this story. So you're making it up about the boats. Yes, that's right. Luckily,

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this will save it. In the middle of the year, we pivoted and turned it into a game because

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because the America's Cup finished so the feeds stopped.

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So then we changed it to be more of like a,

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you know, the Jackbox games?

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- Yeah, yeah.

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- Yeah, so we pretty much took that idea

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and made it so you could log into a room from your phone

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and that would give you a control pad

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and then you could pilot a boat around on the main screen

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and kind of race against your friends.

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- Ah, very nice. - Which was pretty cool.

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- Wait, so that was, was that an iPhone app then?

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- It was just a web page on the phone itself.

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Yeah, yeah, not an app.

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The actual application itself was just like a Java.

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It was written in Java and ran on the Mac.

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- Nice.

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- Yeah, it was really that group project

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where I got very fortunate with the people

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who was on the team with me

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and learned like a whole bunch from that.

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And that was where it kind of,

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everything kind of fell into place.

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Like I had all the pieces from the previous years,

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but working on that with those people

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was when I kind of clicked.

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I was like, oh, this is what I want to be doing.

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And I got to do a lot of the design work on that project too,

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which was pretty cool.

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- Nice.

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So you graduated with a computer science degree then.

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Coming out of that, what was your, like, did you go straight into app development or were

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there some, you know, twists through some other languages or something?

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I think I've been very fortunate with kind of the way things have fallen into place for

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Basically, I finished my degree and then I spent, I think I downloaded Xcode in my sort

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of gap between finding a job and sort of spent a week or two just mucking around.

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I still didn't really know what I was doing then either.

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I just remember dragging buttons from the storyboard into the view controller and

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making it print out things when you tapped on them.

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There's a through line with buttons here.

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You like buttons.

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Just love buttons.

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Big, big button fan.

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Well, they're just good to fidget with.

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Like, I'm like, I still miss 3d touch.

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Cause it was just a great kind of fidget when you were sitting there, just sort of

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pressing on things.

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I can hear Jordan Morgan, uh, like just sighing through the, through the podcast,

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the pipes. The old podcast pipes. Yep. And so I, I interviewed for a few jobs and there

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was this company I'd randomly come across online called smudge, but they didn't have

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any like applications at the time. And so I applied for this other job and sort of went

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through the process of that, but then didn't end up getting that role. And the recruiter

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that was helping me was like, Oh, why don't you apply at this company? And it just happened

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be Smudge, the company that I looked at online and thought, "Oh, it'd be cool to work there."

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And so I interviewed there and got the job and started that after my summer break. And that was

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doing iOS development. So I just landed straight into iOS development without any real experience.

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But then, yeah, just very fortunate to learn as I was working.

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Okay. So you've been doing this pretty much your whole professional career then?

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Yeah, I've done a little bit of Android and web, but iOS is definitely the one I find the most

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exciting. So then what is what got you and you still work there then, right? Is that correct?

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What if you want to talk about that? Yeah. So I still work there, mostly full time.

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And then, yeah, just do crouton on the side. So it can be quite a good, like, I think,

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relationship when you've got a side project and a work project that are the same technologies.

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You can learn things at home that are really helpful at work and vice versa.

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So you can almost like hack your, I don't know, like the whole 10,000 hours thing.

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You can kind of like fast track that if you're passionate about doing it in your

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spare time.

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That was, I, again, I've probably said this before on this podcast, but with dark

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noise, that was the whole point of it is I switched, you know, from web react side

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of things to, uh, to an iOS team, but I didn't, I didn't know iOS development.

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So I'm like, I need to start a side project.

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And part of that too was all the people on my team are not all, but a lot of them also had side apps.

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And the amount of times we'd be in a meeting and we'd be like, can we do this with app store connect?

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And everybody would be like, well, I've done this here.

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Oh, I've used this over here.

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Like everybody could kind of pull in this experience with these little side apps that they had.

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Um, and I definitely found the same thing for me.

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It was like almost addicting when, uh, you could pull out your laptop, like your personal laptop and be like, I

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solve this problem earlier and you can find some old code. Totally. I never really had that doing,

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you know, dotnet enterprise apps because I wasn't usually building those and deploying them to,

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you know, local enterprise apps. Not how you want to spend your evenings. Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly.

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Yeah. I think as well, especially around like dub dub, when all the new APIs and things come out,

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you don't always get an opportunity straight away through like a day job to use those things. But

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like when you're just on your own projects, you can do whatever you want and you don't have to

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sort of, I guess, justify it or have a reason to. And so, you can pick up those things really

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quickly and then often they do come in useful later on down the line.

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So, is that why you started building stuff on the side?

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I think once I started doing iOS development at work, I just found that I enjoyed it

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so much that I just wanted to keep doing it when I got home. And I guess I've always had like,

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I know there's like pain points of the way that you might be doing something. And so,

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So when you suddenly develop a skill where you can solve those pain points yourself,

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it's sort of hard not to at least give it a go.

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It's the, uh, like I'm having a small problem with my garage door and I like raspberry pies.

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Therefore I need some giant Rubic Goldberg machine that attaches a raspberry pie to my

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garage door.

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Uh, it's the same kind of problem, but with apps, I think the problem is having someone,

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not having someone there to tell you that you should just stop and just enjoy some peace

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and quiet.

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I guess you had a full-time job and you were just kind of like making apps for fun, I guess, on the side.

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Were you doing apps like pushing them to the store and trying to make kind of a business out of them or were most of them sort of personal side project kind of things before Crew Town?

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Yeah, it was mostly personal, I guess you would say.

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It was so the first app I built was for my youth group just as a way to keep track of the different events we had on.

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'cause often you'd have like a printed plan,

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but then things would change

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and the printed plan would be kind of useless.

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And so the first app I built was just something

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you could open up and see what was happening that week.

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And there were changes as things updated.

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I think in retrospect,

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that could have probably just been a Google calendar,

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but it was a good opportunity to practice

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sort of building my own thing

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and seeing what that might look like.

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- So then what led you up to Kuru Town itself then?

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- I guess kind of similar.

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When my wife and I got married,

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We started meal planning just as a way to keep groceries cheap.

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And it also just makes it easy when you're working out

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what you want to cook.

00:14:55.360 --> 00:14:57.180

I'd always enjoyed cooking.

00:14:57.180 --> 00:14:59.140

I don't think I'm particularly amazing at it,

00:14:59.140 --> 00:15:01.100

but it's something I've always sort of enjoyed.

00:15:01.100 --> 00:15:03.700

So I was the chief meal planner in the house,

00:15:03.700 --> 00:15:04.700

that's my official title.

00:15:04.700 --> 00:15:07.260

And to start with, I was just using the Notes app.

00:15:07.260 --> 00:15:09.220

So at the top, I just had the days of the week.

00:15:09.220 --> 00:15:14.100

And then underneath that, I had just a massive list of URLs

00:15:14.100 --> 00:15:16.260

and even some typed out recipes.

00:15:16.260 --> 00:15:19.340

So you kind of just infinite scroll, find something that looks good and then

00:15:19.340 --> 00:15:23.780

paste it up the top, which works surprisingly well for a while.

00:15:23.780 --> 00:15:27.180

Like you get iCloud sharing and a note, so you can share it with your family.

00:15:27.180 --> 00:15:27.540


00:15:27.540 --> 00:15:27.900


00:15:27.900 --> 00:15:30.180

I think the notes app in general is great.

00:15:30.180 --> 00:15:33.980

There's a lot of like app ideas that you can kind of manage for a while, just as a

00:15:33.980 --> 00:15:36.220

note, um, until they get unwieldy.

00:15:36.220 --> 00:15:41.340

If we get links, uh, like links to other notes inside of Apple notes,

00:15:41.340 --> 00:15:42.460

it's going to be a killer app.

00:15:42.460 --> 00:15:45.820

I mean, it's, it's a killer app now, but like, I feel like that's kind of the

00:15:45.820 --> 00:15:51.260

one piece missing. It'll put us all out of a job. Yeah. Yeah. You just use notes for that. Uh, and

00:15:51.260 --> 00:15:55.420

so I don't really remember making a conscious decision to start making crouton. I think it

00:15:55.420 --> 00:16:00.940

was just one Saturday. I had some spare time and just sort of started putting something together

00:16:00.940 --> 00:16:05.820

to see what it, what it might look like. Uh, and originally it was really focused around,

00:16:05.820 --> 00:16:10.380

I guess, coming from the note where I just had links and, and recipes, it was actually

00:16:10.380 --> 00:16:14.780

really focused on the meal planning and less about being able to view recipes in the app.

00:16:14.780 --> 00:16:19.580

And so originally it really was just like a, you would just paste links in and then you could

00:16:19.580 --> 00:16:23.740

attach those links to the days of the week. So I guess the benefit was that you could search it

00:16:23.740 --> 00:16:27.500

and things like that, but it really didn't have any focus on being able to do anything

00:16:27.500 --> 00:16:30.300

interesting with the recipes. Like when you wanted to use one,

00:16:30.300 --> 00:16:35.180

you're just opening up that page in the browser. Basically, yeah. Just like Safari view controller.

00:16:35.180 --> 00:16:39.260

And then there it was, um, which I don't, I don't, like, I don't think I shipped that version of it,

00:16:39.260 --> 00:16:43.820

but that's what it was for quite a while. And then I think as I went on, it was like, okay,

00:16:43.820 --> 00:16:48.300

I'm going to have to actually display ingredients and steps and figure out how to make these things

00:16:48.300 --> 00:16:53.100

look sensible and all the sort of, I guess, complications that you don't think will be

00:16:53.100 --> 00:16:59.340

issues until you start trying to build it. And like at this point in the story, it's more or less

00:16:59.340 --> 00:17:05.740

for you still then, right? Like when did you kind of transition to like, oh, this is going to be

00:17:05.740 --> 00:17:11.020

like a product I'm going to try and sell? That was probably definitely after it

00:17:11.020 --> 00:17:13.540

launched, I think, um, after it launched.

00:17:13.540 --> 00:17:18.020

Well, I guess we can get into the launch soon, but yeah, while I was building it,

00:17:18.020 --> 00:17:20.860

it was definitely like, this is going to make things easier for me.

00:17:20.860 --> 00:17:23.620

I guess always you're sort of thinking like, Oh, it'd be nice if other people

00:17:23.620 --> 00:17:26.780

use this, but I don't think I had really like thought about that too much.

00:17:26.780 --> 00:17:27.540


00:17:27.540 --> 00:17:33.900

It wasn't like grand plans about, you know, taking over the recipe app space and

00:17:33.900 --> 00:17:36.180

doing market research and you know, all that.

00:17:36.180 --> 00:17:41.000

It was really like, this is a thing that will be nice for me and it'll be cool.

00:17:41.000 --> 00:17:44.920

like a lot of projects to put it out there. Like if it was a website, it'd be cool to put it out

00:17:44.920 --> 00:17:48.920

there and tweet about it or something. Yeah. Yeah. I definitely didn't do any

00:17:48.920 --> 00:17:52.920

like product market fit or anything like that. I was just like, this would be good for me. And I

00:17:52.920 --> 00:17:58.600

had done a search of the app store just to kind of see what was around. Obviously,

00:17:58.600 --> 00:18:04.600

like Paprika kind of owns the space did and still does in a lot of ways. And I think at the time,

00:18:04.600 --> 00:18:08.760

I just didn't want to pay $8. In retrospect, that probably would have been a good deal.

00:18:08.760 --> 00:18:11.960

It would have saved me a lot of stress and heartbreak.

00:18:11.960 --> 00:18:18.280

But yeah, a lot of the meal planning apps, because that was kind of my angle,

00:18:18.280 --> 00:18:22.200

were really focused on health and that side of it, rather than just the,

00:18:22.200 --> 00:18:26.760

I just want to cook something tomorrow and I'm going to organize that at the start of the week.

00:18:26.760 --> 00:18:28.760

And so, like, originally in Crouton as well, you could only,

00:18:28.760 --> 00:18:33.240

you weren't assigning recipes to dates, you were just assigning them to the day of the week.

00:18:33.240 --> 00:18:37.240

So, it was like really, really basic. Basically, at the start of the next week,

00:18:37.240 --> 00:18:40.280

you'd have to clear the list and then add in the recipes again.

00:18:40.280 --> 00:18:42.520

Oh, yeah. Interesting.

00:18:42.520 --> 00:18:46.440

So there's like a lot of decisions I made that I think made it clear that it was built just for the

00:18:46.440 --> 00:18:52.360

way that I used recipe apps. And then over time, as people have actually started using it, then I've

00:18:52.360 --> 00:18:57.160

sort of tried to, I guess, soften some of those things, like still have an opinion and the way

00:18:57.160 --> 00:19:00.040

things should be done, but also take feedback and sort of refine things a bit.

00:19:00.040 --> 00:19:06.520

So based on how you are describing it, I'm guessing there wasn't a big beta test group

00:19:06.520 --> 00:19:08.640

or anything like that.

00:19:08.640 --> 00:19:10.720

What was the state of the app?

00:19:10.720 --> 00:19:13.080

And then like, what was the actual launch itself like then?

00:19:13.080 --> 00:19:14.440

The initial launch?

00:19:14.440 --> 00:19:16.480

- Yeah, I don't even know if I'm allowed to be on this show

00:19:16.480 --> 00:19:18.200

'cause I don't know if you can really call it a launch,

00:19:18.200 --> 00:19:19.040

but I--

00:19:19.040 --> 00:19:21.280

- Well, it went from existing to not existing.

00:19:21.280 --> 00:19:23.440

So the boat ended up in the water.

00:19:23.440 --> 00:19:24.280

I think that's--

00:19:24.280 --> 00:19:26.000

- Yes, yeah.

00:19:26.000 --> 00:19:27.080

So at that point, I really,

00:19:27.080 --> 00:19:28.840

I'd been on Twitter for a long time,

00:19:28.840 --> 00:19:30.800

but I actually didn't follow a lot of people

00:19:30.800 --> 00:19:33.900

in like the iOS developer space.

00:19:33.900 --> 00:19:38.700

And so I'd started tweeting about it a little bit, but I actually, I checked earlier today

00:19:38.700 --> 00:19:41.260

before coming on to see like what I had done leading up to it.

00:19:41.260 --> 00:19:46.200

And I think I tweeted once showing a little video of it automatically detecting something

00:19:46.200 --> 00:19:50.560

on your clipboard popping up another screenshot of it running on Catalyst.

00:19:50.560 --> 00:19:53.560

And then the post after that was the launch tweet.

00:19:53.560 --> 00:19:56.780

And so there was really like no kind of, I guess, like, you know, trying to build up

00:19:56.780 --> 00:19:58.260

hype or see if there's any interest.

00:19:58.260 --> 00:20:01.220

It was kind of just like, Hey everyone, I made a recipe app.

00:20:01.220 --> 00:20:02.320

And that was kind of it.

00:20:02.320 --> 00:20:07.760

screenshot of it was not very thought through. It was like a recipe that I just quickly typed up

00:20:07.760 --> 00:20:13.040

which had like the ingredients was a chicken breast and two tablespoons of curry powder

00:20:13.040 --> 00:20:19.200

and that was like the screenshot. Yeah, I clearly was not thinking at all about how to sort of

00:20:19.200 --> 00:20:22.160

present this as something that other people might want to use.

00:20:22.160 --> 00:20:27.120

It's so interesting because I came into understanding or knowledge of this later but

00:20:28.080 --> 00:20:33.840

Everything you do now feels like very thought through and there's little jokes hidden in places

00:20:33.840 --> 00:20:39.280

and I feel like you do really think through that. So I'm curious how you, like, what,

00:20:39.280 --> 00:20:41.440

how'd you get from there to where you are right now then?

00:20:41.440 --> 00:20:49.040

Yeah, I think I'm making up for lost time. Because basically, I launched in 2019 and it got,

00:20:49.040 --> 00:20:55.600

I think, two downloads on the first day, which was me and my mom. So it went very well. She

00:20:55.600 --> 00:21:00.240

thought it was a good app. A small but very loyal user base, I think is what you're saying.

00:21:00.240 --> 00:21:03.360

Yeah, well she still uses it. So it's... That's awesome.

00:21:03.360 --> 00:21:08.160

Must have done all right. So it was actually, I think, almost a whole year or at least six to

00:21:08.160 --> 00:21:11.840

eight months when no one was really using it. But I was still working on it. It was

00:21:11.840 --> 00:21:15.360

good at least that it had solved a problem for me and was legitimately useful.

00:21:15.360 --> 00:21:20.640

Was it paid up front or one-time purchase, in-app purchase, which is what I think it is today?

00:21:20.640 --> 00:21:26.080

Yeah, I think when I launched it was free and then there was a net purchase to unlock iCloud

00:21:26.080 --> 00:21:31.040

syncing. Okay. That did not do very well. And so then after a few months, I changed it to paid up

00:21:31.040 --> 00:21:34.560

front, which also just made it easier to develop because I didn't have to worry about.

00:21:34.560 --> 00:21:37.840

Yeah. You get through app reviews so much faster and.

00:21:37.840 --> 00:21:39.120


00:21:39.120 --> 00:21:43.600

It's funny. I mean, by the time this comes out, it'll be old, but I've been tweeting,

00:21:43.600 --> 00:21:49.120

I think today or last night, I don't remember about thinking about changing things with dark

00:21:49.120 --> 00:21:55.040

noise. And, uh, it's one of those where it's like, it's exciting thinking about it, but man, paid up

00:21:55.040 --> 00:21:59.600

front is so much easier. Like as much as there's a reason why everybody says not to do it. I

00:21:59.600 --> 00:22:07.200

understand that from a business sense, but you avoid so much work. Definitely. Surprisingly.

00:22:07.200 --> 00:22:11.360

There's definitely a lot of positives about paid up front, but it's hard to get people to convince

00:22:11.360 --> 00:22:17.200

people to download it. Yeah. You're asking people to put a lot of money down on something or not a

00:22:17.200 --> 00:22:23.280

lot. But you know what I mean? Put money down on something based on no real reputation,

00:22:23.280 --> 00:22:26.880

just what they can see in screenshots. And you're up against a bunch of things that usually

00:22:26.880 --> 00:22:32.160

they have to put no money down to try it out. Yeah. So, and I think so switching to paid up

00:22:32.160 --> 00:22:36.560

front was also not the right move because then I was basically like direct comparison to Paprika

00:22:36.560 --> 00:22:44.320

and other apps where I just like, I'm amazed at how little the app did when I shipped it that I,

00:22:45.440 --> 00:22:48.880

like in retrospect, I probably should have, I think, held off for a few extra months and just

00:22:48.880 --> 00:22:53.840

like tidied up a few extra things and launched it then. I think it was just good to get something

00:22:53.840 --> 00:22:57.920

out the door and start using it. And I think what happened after that was I started really getting

00:22:57.920 --> 00:23:02.080

into the developer community a lot more and realizing that there's a lot of other people

00:23:02.080 --> 00:23:07.760

trying to do very similar things. And so, I just started getting really inspired about all the

00:23:07.760 --> 00:23:12.240

different things you see people working on on Twitter and also looking at how they, I guess,

00:23:12.240 --> 00:23:17.200

market their new features and their updates and post about things and, I guess, try and analyze

00:23:17.200 --> 00:23:20.800

what works and what doesn't work. And so, I think, yeah, now when I post things, I'm definitely

00:23:20.800 --> 00:23:27.280

thinking about that a lot more, probably too much at this point, but just around, like, I don't know,

00:23:27.280 --> 00:23:31.440

trying to get the perfect screen recording of a feature or exactly how something's going to look

00:23:31.440 --> 00:23:34.800

when someone else views it without any context and things like that.

00:23:34.800 --> 00:23:39.040

So, a lot of that, I think I've just built up from looking at how other people do things and kind of

00:23:39.760 --> 00:23:45.040

trying to, I guess, copy what I think works well and trying to do it, I guess, in my own way too.

00:23:45.040 --> 00:23:47.600

But yeah, just looking at how other people are doing it.

00:23:47.600 --> 00:23:55.840

So I feel like, I mean, I don't know the reality, so maybe my perception is way off here. But I feel

00:23:55.840 --> 00:24:00.400

like there's more than two users. Well, three, because I'm one of them using the app now. So

00:24:00.400 --> 00:24:06.320

what sort of changed the tide on something that was another app in the store wasn't getting a lot

00:24:06.320 --> 00:24:11.120

attention to something that's seems like at least a genuine like business.

00:24:11.120 --> 00:24:18.400

I think there was a release I put out in early 2020 was like kind of after COVID hit and I was

00:24:18.400 --> 00:24:24.320

at home a lot more. And I think I just focused on all the sort of key points that I was getting.

00:24:24.320 --> 00:24:28.560

Like I was sort of getting a few users over time. And so I started to get a little bit of feedback.

00:24:28.560 --> 00:24:33.680

And so there's a release I put out that added like grocery planning and it made the meal plan

00:24:33.680 --> 00:24:38.480

infinite so you could plan into the future as much as you want. And a few extra things in that

00:24:38.480 --> 00:24:42.720

release that I think kind of took it from being just something that solved my problem to being

00:24:42.720 --> 00:24:47.280

legitimately useful for other people. And I definitely kind of see that as kind of a marker

00:24:47.280 --> 00:24:55.200

of where it established itself as an app. Was there like a notable, maybe not jump is the

00:24:55.200 --> 00:25:00.240

wrong word, but growth that happened after that? I think most of Crouton's growth has been pretty

00:25:00.240 --> 00:25:06.560

gradual. There's definitely been some spikes. I got picked up by Max Stories

00:25:06.560 --> 00:25:14.480

late 2020, I think. And that also was a really great way to just get out in front of other people

00:25:14.480 --> 00:25:18.080

and be seen. And so there's definitely been some spikes where different things have happened,

00:25:18.080 --> 00:25:20.640

like app store features and things like that. But I would say on the whole,

00:25:20.640 --> 00:25:27.680

Crouton's growth has been really progressive over time, which is good and bad. Sometimes those big

00:25:27.680 --> 00:25:31.360

spikes can be a little bit, I guess, depressing when you come back down from them.

00:25:31.360 --> 00:25:36.480

You just want to chase like the feeling of like, I don't know, massive growth overnight again.

00:25:36.480 --> 00:25:39.520

Whereas when it's just sort of gradual over time, it's a bit more like sustainable. And it's like,

00:25:39.520 --> 00:25:43.360

okay, if I just keep doing this and focusing on what I think makes a good product, then,

00:25:43.360 --> 00:25:45.760

you know, hopefully it'll continue down that path.

00:25:45.760 --> 00:25:51.760

That's interesting. So did you find that after those spikes, the tail sort of continued,

00:25:51.760 --> 00:25:58.080

Like you got some growth out of that? Or were those really just like, if you just got rid of

00:25:58.080 --> 00:26:01.840

those, yes, you'd lose the money from those spikes, but they didn't necessarily affect

00:26:01.840 --> 00:26:06.880

the overall trajectory of the app. Like how, or was most of the growth, I guess, coming from

00:26:06.880 --> 00:26:12.160

the sort of day to day grinding or were those spikes, the things that were kind of driving some

00:26:12.160 --> 00:26:16.800

of that growth, I guess is what I'm really asking. Yeah, I guess it's hard to know exactly my,

00:26:16.800 --> 00:26:21.360

I definitely be interested to see what other people, what their experience has been, but

00:26:21.360 --> 00:26:26.240

But typically after those, I found that it levels off sort of a little bit above where

00:26:26.240 --> 00:26:29.760

it was before, but certainly not like while it's happening, you're like, oh, this is awesome.

00:26:29.760 --> 00:26:32.320

I'm going to be like, you know, number one forever.

00:26:32.320 --> 00:26:33.320


00:26:33.320 --> 00:26:36.840

James Thompson, he was talking about when they released, like when the app store first

00:26:36.840 --> 00:26:38.240

came out.

00:26:38.240 --> 00:26:41.720

So there was no, no stories or history to go with.

00:26:41.720 --> 00:26:46.240

They all were projecting out like these numbers over the next however many years.

00:26:46.240 --> 00:26:48.720

And they're like, oh my gosh, we're going to be like millionaires.

00:26:48.720 --> 00:26:49.720


00:26:49.720 --> 00:26:50.720


00:26:50.720 --> 00:26:55.920

Yeah. Yeah. So I think in my experience has been that after that it levels off somewhere

00:26:55.920 --> 00:27:01.480

slightly above where it was previously, but not anything significant. And so I think for

00:27:01.480 --> 00:27:07.080

me what's worked has been just over time, I think building up like a presence on Twitter

00:27:07.080 --> 00:27:11.320

and kind of just sharing what I'm working on and then just the consistency of delivering

00:27:11.320 --> 00:27:13.600

and trying to add new things that will be helpful.

00:27:13.600 --> 00:27:18.440

I think then over time, then like kind of the word of mouth of your product spreads

00:27:18.440 --> 00:27:20.920

and then it kind of builds up that way.

00:27:20.920 --> 00:27:22.960

At least that's been my experience.

00:27:22.960 --> 00:27:24.600

- Yeah, that makes sense.

00:27:24.600 --> 00:27:26.120

I wanna talk about a couple of those features.

00:27:26.120 --> 00:27:30.280

So like, I guess one of the more standout ones

00:27:30.280 --> 00:27:34.240

is the blink, what do you actually call the feature?

00:27:34.240 --> 00:27:37.560

It's like blink detection for how you actually navigate

00:27:37.560 --> 00:27:39.960

while you're running through your steps.

00:27:39.960 --> 00:27:41.640

- Yeah, I think it's just called like wink mode

00:27:41.640 --> 00:27:42.760

or hands-free. - Wink mode.

00:27:42.760 --> 00:27:44.320

That's, yeah, that's the word.

00:27:44.320 --> 00:27:45.920

How'd that come about?

00:27:45.920 --> 00:27:48.160

- That one was interesting because,

00:27:48.160 --> 00:27:51.200

I didn't have a step-by-step mode in Crouton at all before that.

00:27:51.200 --> 00:27:55.760

And then I think I was just driving home from work one day and I don't know, daydreaming or

00:27:55.760 --> 00:27:59.120

something. I thought, "Oh, it'd be cool if I could move through the recipe without having

00:27:59.120 --> 00:28:04.560

to touch the screen. That'll be kind of fun." And then I guess just thought, "Oh, how could

00:28:04.560 --> 00:28:09.120

I do that?" And then, yeah, just thought about the TrueDepth camera. Oh, you don't even need

00:28:09.120 --> 00:28:14.160

the TrueDepth now. You just the front camera with the face detection. And then I just thought,

00:28:14.160 --> 00:28:18.000

"Oh, yeah, maybe I could detect if you're winking or opening your mouth and that could be a way to

00:28:18.000 --> 00:28:21.520

to move through the steps, but I really thought it was kind of like a gimmick.

00:28:21.520 --> 00:28:23.120

I wasn't sure if I was actually going to ship it.

00:28:23.120 --> 00:28:26.840

And it took like a week to get it through app review as well, because they kept

00:28:26.840 --> 00:28:30.120

sending back feedback, like, where are you using true depth in your app?

00:28:30.120 --> 00:28:32.720

And it just took a very long time to explain, like

00:28:32.720 --> 00:28:34.600

some check boxes checked in.

00:28:34.600 --> 00:28:38.720

They need to actually go find that, which makes your app review slower, I guess.

00:28:38.720 --> 00:28:40.040

Probably every time now.

00:28:40.040 --> 00:28:44.200

I think at this point I've gotten on that feature specifically, I've worked out

00:28:44.200 --> 00:28:48.600

exactly what I need to include to kind of avoid having to answer questions about that one.

00:28:48.600 --> 00:28:51.720

But yeah, there's definitely some good videos of me like late at night,

00:28:51.720 --> 00:28:54.280

winking at my phone to sort of submit as a proof.

00:28:54.280 --> 00:28:57.800

But those will never be distributed.

00:28:57.800 --> 00:29:01.400

So you were saying you weren't sure if that was going to be,

00:29:01.400 --> 00:29:03.320

if you thought it was going to be a gimmick, but then.

00:29:03.320 --> 00:29:07.240

Yeah, I mean, I think it probably is still a gimmick.

00:29:07.240 --> 00:29:10.120

I do use it occasionally, but it's got, it was a lot more,

00:29:10.120 --> 00:29:12.520

it landed a lot better than I thought it was going to.

00:29:12.520 --> 00:29:15.720

because I just thought it was kind of like a goofy thing that'd be fun to put together and

00:29:15.720 --> 00:29:20.360

see if I could make it work. But then almost every time now when it gets picked up by

00:29:20.360 --> 00:29:26.840

someone, they often mention that as a key feature, which I just find amusing because to me,

00:29:26.840 --> 00:29:30.760

it was just like a little thing I kind of threw in as something fun that I could do.

00:29:30.760 --> 00:29:35.320

We've talked outside of this podcast a couple of times and you sometimes make fun of me for

00:29:35.320 --> 00:29:37.600

for not using step-by-step mode.

00:29:37.600 --> 00:29:42.600

I will say, I do find myself now with using crouton.

00:29:42.600 --> 00:29:44.600

If I'm cooking certain things,

00:29:44.600 --> 00:29:46.040

like if I'm chopping vegetables or whatever,

00:29:46.040 --> 00:29:49.000

and it's a recipe I don't know as well,

00:29:49.000 --> 00:29:50.840

I will set up my phone,

00:29:50.840 --> 00:29:52.640

'cause I don't use a kitchen iPad,

00:29:52.640 --> 00:29:55.320

which I know you're also a big proponent of.

00:29:55.320 --> 00:29:56.400

- Big believer in the kitchen iPad.

00:29:56.400 --> 00:29:57.400

- Yeah, yeah.

00:29:57.400 --> 00:29:59.840

I'll grab one of, I have this little,

00:29:59.840 --> 00:30:01.120

nobody can see this except for you,

00:30:01.120 --> 00:30:03.360

but I have one of these little phone stand things

00:30:03.360 --> 00:30:05.460

that every iOS developer probably has.

00:30:05.460 --> 00:30:07.160

And I'll grab that from my office

00:30:07.160 --> 00:30:09.960

and bring it down to my kitchen and set my phone up

00:30:09.960 --> 00:30:13.080

just so that I can blink through the,

00:30:13.080 --> 00:30:14.680

it sounds weird saying it out loud,

00:30:14.680 --> 00:30:16.060

blink through the steps.

00:30:16.060 --> 00:30:18.760

Because I'm like, I'm the worst,

00:30:18.760 --> 00:30:21.840

I'm a horrible cook in terms of time.

00:30:21.840 --> 00:30:25.960

Like, I'm just a very slow person in general

00:30:25.960 --> 00:30:28.520

as, you know, dark noise development can attest.

00:30:28.520 --> 00:30:30.320

And this applies to cooking as well.

00:30:30.320 --> 00:30:33.360

I will like double, triple check recipes.

00:30:33.360 --> 00:30:38.720

Like I will look at the number of ounces or whatever, the actual

00:30:38.720 --> 00:30:43.620

scale I need for something, and then I'll go grab the thing and then I'll look again to see what the number is.

00:30:43.620 --> 00:30:48.920

And then I'll unscrew the cap and then I'll look again at what the number is because I just instantly forget it.

00:30:48.920 --> 00:30:50.640

I don't think that's a you problem.

00:30:50.640 --> 00:30:52.040

I do exactly the same thing.

00:30:52.040 --> 00:30:54.800

Yeah. It's like, oh, I better check that again in case I did it wrong.

00:30:54.800 --> 00:30:59.840

Yeah. Like I've probably messed up one time, you know, early in my life

00:30:59.840 --> 00:31:03.480

And now every single time I have to check a thousand times because I don't want to-

00:31:03.480 --> 00:31:04.480

Some childhood trauma.

00:31:04.480 --> 00:31:07.360

Yeah, double the amount of, you know, chili powder or whatever.

00:31:07.360 --> 00:31:17.120

And so with that, like, I won't do this if my family's home because I know I look really goofy.

00:31:17.120 --> 00:31:21.760

I like I genuinely really, really love it for that because it's-

00:31:21.760 --> 00:31:22.840

Is it opening your mouth?

00:31:22.840 --> 00:31:25.760

Is that what it is to pull down the ingredients?

00:31:26.000 --> 00:31:30.160

Yeah, if you're on an iPhone or like a compact view, yeah, then opening your mouth will pop up.

00:31:30.160 --> 00:31:35.520

Okay. Yeah. And that's, that's the one I use very frequently, actually, surprisingly.

00:31:35.520 --> 00:31:40.000

It's interesting. I thought what your story was going to be for that was going to be

00:31:40.000 --> 00:31:47.520

the typical iOS developer. I was watching WWDC videos about VisionKit and I wanted to workshop

00:31:47.520 --> 00:31:52.320

this in, but it sounds like you actually came at that from the solving a problem perspective,

00:31:52.960 --> 00:31:54.800

even though you thought it was going to be a gimmick.

00:31:54.800 --> 00:31:57.280

Yeah, that one just kind of, yeah, came out of nowhere and then

00:31:57.280 --> 00:32:01.520

sort of had all the right pieces to put it together, which was cool.

00:32:01.520 --> 00:32:06.400

It's interesting. I feel like I've seen other apps do similar things,

00:32:06.400 --> 00:32:10.160

maybe not the exact same method, but like the idea of a,

00:32:10.160 --> 00:32:16.720

I have messy hands way of navigating through steps. I've seen other people do that. So

00:32:16.720 --> 00:32:22.400

I'm guessing that is like a feature that lots of people probably use. I can't be the only one.

00:32:22.400 --> 00:32:27.200

Now I'm wishing that there's like a video compilation of all the users just like opening

00:32:27.200 --> 00:32:30.080

their mouth and winking at their phone to move through the steps.

00:32:30.080 --> 00:32:33.120

Yeah, there's another business opportunity for you.

00:32:33.120 --> 00:32:43.200

You can secretly capture the video and then, you know, have a $9.99 unlock to not tweet it to all

00:32:43.200 --> 00:32:48.800

your friends or, you know, message it to all your friends or something. Blackmail as a service.

00:32:48.800 --> 00:32:49.280

Yeah, yeah.

00:32:49.280 --> 00:32:58.240

Back to your point quickly about DubDub, sort of, and using that as like a catalyst for

00:32:58.240 --> 00:33:02.320

features. I have worked on a few different variations of the hands-free mode as a result

00:33:02.320 --> 00:33:06.160

of seeing stuff at DubDub. Like, they brought out the, like, hand pose detection and things

00:33:06.160 --> 00:33:10.480

like that. So I have played around with being able to navigate the recipe just using your

00:33:10.480 --> 00:33:14.520

hands instead, because I think, and part of why I guess I think I thought it was a gimmick,

00:33:14.520 --> 00:33:18.040

like, winking left and right can be kind of a fatiguing exercise if you want to move through

00:33:18.040 --> 00:33:22.440

lot of steps. And so, I think there's definitely some, probably some other interesting sort of

00:33:22.440 --> 00:33:26.360

ways that, yeah, you could add a layer of interaction without having to actually touch the

00:33:26.360 --> 00:33:31.400

screen. It seems like there would be a accessibility angle to that, even though that wasn't

00:33:31.400 --> 00:33:35.960

necessarily your original intent. Have you heard from people who use it in that kind of context,

00:33:35.960 --> 00:33:41.560

or have requests for a similar kind of context? I don't think so. I have mostly had the opposite

00:33:41.560 --> 00:33:45.960

where people let me know that it's quite hard to wink left and right over and over again. Yeah.

00:33:45.960 --> 00:33:49.560

Yeah, it'd be quite interesting to know if that is actually useful or not.

00:33:49.560 --> 00:33:53.400

I guess in that case, like voiceover is kind of more the answer there.

00:33:53.400 --> 00:33:56.440

Yeah, that's true. You've got like the system layer. So there's not necessarily,

00:33:56.440 --> 00:33:59.640

and as long as you conform to the platform conventions for accessibility,

00:33:59.640 --> 00:34:01.320

you're kind of getting a lot of that for free.

00:34:01.320 --> 00:34:06.600

So like another thing, this isn't really a specific feature, but this is more or less

00:34:06.600 --> 00:34:10.600

the thing that really makes me love this app. I feel like there's a lot of just

00:34:11.240 --> 00:34:15.560

Delightful custom controls. Like in particular, if you're like in the grocery app,

00:34:15.560 --> 00:34:21.160

or I guess it's when you're inputting a recipe to the like custom, you know, scale,

00:34:21.160 --> 00:34:25.800

what do you call that? The like card view that comes up for putting in the number of...

00:34:25.800 --> 00:34:27.720

Like the ingredient keypad.

00:34:27.720 --> 00:34:31.960

There you go. That's the word I'm looking for. The ingredient keypad.

00:34:31.960 --> 00:34:37.880

That thing is amazing. What led you to building a custom like control like that?

00:34:37.880 --> 00:34:40.760

Yeah, that one's kind of a little bit funny because I spent-

00:34:40.760 --> 00:34:46.200

Or actually, so originally the inspiration for that kind of like layout actually came from

00:34:46.200 --> 00:34:52.520

Daniel Gauthier's Obother app. He kind of has those kind of little cards that pop up.

00:34:52.520 --> 00:34:57.880

And I had been for a while trying to work out like, "Oh, how can I make the ingredient input

00:34:57.880 --> 00:35:03.320

better?" Because like typing out things like fractions and stuff on a keypad can sometimes

00:35:03.320 --> 00:35:07.720

be a pain, especially if you're modifying a recipe ingredient. It's nice to kind of

00:35:07.720 --> 00:35:12.040

have something that's aware that it's a recipe and not just the default keypad.

00:35:12.040 --> 00:35:16.600

And so I actually spent like a whole weekend building something quite different where it was

00:35:16.600 --> 00:35:23.000

more like steppers where you could like quickly add and remove like amounts sort of in stepping

00:35:23.000 --> 00:35:28.360

increments and sunk like quite a lot of time into trying to make that good and solving a lot of

00:35:28.360 --> 00:35:32.520

challenges that came with that approach. And then I think by the end of the weekend, I was just like,

00:35:32.520 --> 00:35:38.520

"This is not good. This is definitely worse than the normal keypad." And so, I scrapped the whole

00:35:38.520 --> 00:35:42.440

thing and then really quickly, or at least comparably to the amount of time I spent on

00:35:42.440 --> 00:35:47.880

the first version, built out what it looks like now, where it's more of just a keypad where you

00:35:47.880 --> 00:35:50.840

type it out and you can choose the quantities and things like that.

00:35:50.840 --> 00:35:55.080

But yeah, it's always interesting when you sink a lot of time into something,

00:35:55.080 --> 00:35:57.960

it can be quite easy just to be like, "Okay, well, this is what I'm going to go with because

00:35:58.520 --> 00:36:03.240

I've spent so much time on it, but I'm glad with that, that I didn't and that I,

00:36:03.240 --> 00:36:05.960

yeah, was able to come up with something that I guess kind of still has the same,

00:36:05.960 --> 00:36:09.000

the essence of what I was going for with the other thing, but ends up being

00:36:09.000 --> 00:36:15.400

a much more obvious solution, I think. Yeah, I think the thing is like, there is the easy

00:36:15.400 --> 00:36:21.320

answer to develop, which is use the keypad that Apple built and you know, that's going to work.

00:36:21.320 --> 00:36:26.040

And you know, that's that and that's what most other apps I use. There's also some that do like

00:36:27.400 --> 00:36:33.080

little extra buttons that float above the keypad. And those work okay. But this is like,

00:36:33.080 --> 00:36:38.760

there's a bunch of examples in the app. But this is the one that I remember the first time I used

00:36:38.760 --> 00:36:44.920

the app is the thing that made the whole thing really stand out as a high quality experience,

00:36:44.920 --> 00:36:49.560

which is like, this is an action I'm going to do frequently. And there's a way to do it that's

00:36:49.560 --> 00:36:54.600

dedicated specifically to this task. And it's going to do it really smooth and easily and quickly.

00:36:55.880 --> 00:36:59.560

And once you do that, it sort of like lets you know what you're about to experience with

00:36:59.560 --> 00:37:04.920

everything else, which is like expect everything to have this level of like polish around it.

00:37:04.920 --> 00:37:10.680

I'm glad you think so. I remember actually, I don't know. Another thing that actually did

00:37:10.680 --> 00:37:16.920

help with croutons growth was when you discovered the app and you because I had made like a launch

00:37:16.920 --> 00:37:21.240

style icon of the app and then just sort of tweeted it out. Like, please, notice me.

00:37:21.240 --> 00:37:26.520

Was that back when I was trying to fill my whole screen with all launched app icons?

00:37:26.520 --> 00:37:30.760

Yeah. And I think you must have installed it because it was going to help fill the screen.

00:37:30.760 --> 00:37:34.120

And then you obviously opened it and started using it. And you posted a video of like,

00:37:34.120 --> 00:37:37.720

"Oh, look at this ingredient keypad." And I was like, "Oh, no, please don't show everyone what

00:37:37.720 --> 00:37:42.280

I've been doing." It's kind of like a, I don't know if you feel this, but it's really bizarre

00:37:42.280 --> 00:37:47.320

seeing people actually use your app. And I always find that it's a very uncomfortable experience of

00:37:47.320 --> 00:37:49.800

of like, please don't break, please don't break.

00:37:49.800 --> 00:37:52.800

- It doesn't help that for me,

00:37:52.800 --> 00:37:55.080

like you built Crouton and you were the main user

00:37:55.080 --> 00:37:58.360

'cause you said you were the person who cooked all the time.

00:37:58.360 --> 00:38:01.560

I built Dark Noise because my wife

00:38:01.560 --> 00:38:03.560

uses a white noise app every night.

00:38:03.560 --> 00:38:06.920

And I very occasionally do, but not very often.

00:38:06.920 --> 00:38:11.920

And what I found is my wife is very good at finding bugs

00:38:11.920 --> 00:38:14.120

and they would come up at night

00:38:14.120 --> 00:38:16.440

'cause that's when she would hit play on the thing

00:38:16.440 --> 00:38:21.700

And like constantly, like I would like get anxiety going to bed when she'd pull

00:38:21.700 --> 00:38:24.600

her phone out sometimes because, you know, she'd be like, "Oh."

00:38:24.600 --> 00:38:25.720

- "You're not just 3am."

00:38:25.720 --> 00:38:26.520

- Yeah.

00:38:26.520 --> 00:38:29.920

Or like it wouldn't fade up correctly or it would sound, even if she didn't say

00:38:29.920 --> 00:38:34.360

anything, it's just like this like, like tense feeling.

00:38:34.360 --> 00:38:35.840

So I very much know that.

00:38:35.840 --> 00:38:39.180

I've never seen anybody in the wild using it, even if it was super popular.

00:38:39.180 --> 00:38:43.000

I don't know that that's something that I would ever really expect to see, but I'm

00:38:43.000 --> 00:38:43.880

definitely not there either.

00:38:44.060 --> 00:38:48.560

But yeah, whenever people like tweet a screenshot of here's a mix I made or

00:38:48.560 --> 00:38:52.700

whatever, it's always that same feeling of like, I should be proud, but.

00:38:52.700 --> 00:38:54.900

It's like heart rate just goes straight up.

00:38:54.900 --> 00:38:56.240

Yeah, yeah, exactly.

00:38:56.240 --> 00:38:58.940

It's like, it's like doing a live demo somehow.

00:38:58.940 --> 00:39:00.420

It's the same kind of feeling, I guess.

00:39:00.420 --> 00:39:02.480

It's just very stressful.

00:39:02.480 --> 00:39:03.440

Yeah, I think.

00:39:03.440 --> 00:39:06.860

And going back to your, um, about your wife giving feedback, I actually think like

00:39:06.860 --> 00:39:11.340

that's one of, been one of the key parts of Crouton success as well as actually

00:39:11.340 --> 00:39:13.500

like when I build something, I'll show it to my wife.

00:39:13.540 --> 00:39:17.300

"Oh, what do you think of this?" And because she's got no context of what I've been trying to achieve

00:39:17.300 --> 00:39:21.700

or sometimes you might spend ages on something and so you're just committed to it because you've put

00:39:21.700 --> 00:39:25.460

in the effort. And so having someone that can just look at it and be like, "Hmm, I think you can do

00:39:25.460 --> 00:39:29.940

better than this." Or she's always very nice about how she delivers the feedback, but she's also

00:39:29.940 --> 00:39:35.060

very good at pushing me on things that I probably should try harder on. She's also very good at

00:39:35.060 --> 00:39:39.380

finding bugs. So whenever she's cooking, she usually comes with a list of feedback afterwards

00:39:39.380 --> 00:39:46.180

on what I could do better. Oh man, yeah. It's, I mean, it really is like, that's the best thing,

00:39:46.180 --> 00:39:50.740

right? Is somebody, somebody who's not you. Cause like when I'm using my own software,

00:39:50.740 --> 00:39:56.420

I feel like I'm tiptoeing around it all the time anyway. So to me, everything I make feels like

00:39:56.420 --> 00:40:03.140

it's a house of cards that's about to fall apart. No, I mean, like, I feel like everything's going

00:40:03.140 --> 00:40:07.460

to break if I just touch it wrong. You know what I mean? And so I probably, or not probably,

00:40:07.460 --> 00:40:10.420

I definitely don't use it probably like a normal person would.

00:40:10.420 --> 00:40:15.300

Yeah, my wife is good about using it like a normal person.

00:40:15.300 --> 00:40:20.580

And same for, you know, it's like you're saying, you see it out like your mom was using it.

00:40:20.580 --> 00:40:27.860

And once you get users giving you feedback, it's amazing how they can represent the normal person

00:40:27.860 --> 00:40:32.100

for a lot of use cases where you never are going to be the normal person.

00:40:32.900 --> 00:40:38.900

We can start like ironing out those or rounding out those rough edges, the sharp corners, man,

00:40:38.900 --> 00:40:41.700

there's a there's a phrase there that I'm dancing around and I'm just...

00:40:41.700 --> 00:40:43.620

You hit all of the right words, I think.

00:40:43.620 --> 00:40:47.300

All right, perfect. I at least got all the right words at some point,

00:40:47.300 --> 00:40:50.260

maybe not in the right order all at once, but we got there.

00:40:50.260 --> 00:40:54.980

Yeah, I think user feedback has been really... It's great when you get an email or like a

00:40:54.980 --> 00:40:59.300

message from someone that you can tell they, I guess, have the same vision of the app or what

00:40:59.300 --> 00:41:03.460

it can be. And so you can tell that the feedback is sort of like really in line with your own,

00:41:03.460 --> 00:41:08.100

I guess, views of what you're trying to do. And yeah, I think it's just always really exciting

00:41:08.100 --> 00:41:12.100

when you find a user like that, that you can kind of like bounce ideas off of or get their feedback

00:41:12.100 --> 00:41:16.740

on how they sort of interpreted a feature when they first saw it. And yeah, I always try and

00:41:16.740 --> 00:41:20.100

when I get that kind of feedback, implement those changes as quickly as I can.

00:41:20.100 --> 00:41:27.300

Yeah, for sure. Especially when you're like, when you're in the earlier stage of building something

00:41:27.300 --> 00:41:33.220

and you're excited and you integrate that feedback quickly, you get into this really

00:41:33.220 --> 00:41:41.140

like addicting loop of making people happy. Like I don't know, there's nothing better than that.

00:41:41.140 --> 00:41:47.460

Somebody sending you an email and then you like... I would do this with test flights especially,

00:41:47.460 --> 00:41:52.100

getting a test flight out with it in there and then putting in the notes like, "Thanks, Bob."

00:41:52.740 --> 00:41:57.620

And you're just kind of like, "Yeah, like, maybe they don't care, but I feel like I made their day.

00:41:57.620 --> 00:41:59.380

Like, it just feels really special."

00:41:59.380 --> 00:42:00.980

Yeah, it's really, really satisfying.

00:42:00.980 --> 00:42:03.940

And then that encourages more people to want to send you that feedback.

00:42:03.940 --> 00:42:06.820

And that, like, cycle gets going again.

00:42:06.820 --> 00:42:07.540


00:42:07.540 --> 00:42:12.740

I haven't been in that in a while. And it's almost depressing when you're not because it's,

00:42:12.740 --> 00:42:18.980

I don't know, it's like, it makes it so much easier to kind of get into that flow, I feel like.

00:42:18.980 --> 00:42:21.780

Yeah, I think it's definitely one of the most helpful things when you're kind of in like a

00:42:21.780 --> 00:42:25.700

a slump of motivation. Yeah. If someone just sends through something like, oh, hey, it'd

00:42:25.700 --> 00:42:30.020

be cool if it did this, then you just can like jump in and smash it out. Whereas I find

00:42:30.020 --> 00:42:34.700

when I'm working on like bigger features, it's way easier just to sort of, I guess,

00:42:34.700 --> 00:42:37.740

not, not do any work on it because I know that if I do, I'm going to have to tackle

00:42:37.740 --> 00:42:42.180

this really big problem. And so those little things are great kind of like funnels where

00:42:42.180 --> 00:42:45.140

you, you do the little thing and then you suddenly find that you're working on the big

00:42:45.140 --> 00:42:48.820

challenging thing again without kind of noticing. And so it's just a good way of getting back

00:42:48.820 --> 00:42:49.820

into it.

00:42:49.820 --> 00:42:52.180

Those quality, it's nice to have like quality of life.

00:42:52.180 --> 00:42:57.180

Quick wins, I guess, would be the, uh, the corporate term for it, but it could,

00:42:57.180 --> 00:42:58.980

yeah, I can really kickstart things again.

00:42:58.980 --> 00:43:04.100

I guess, speaking of that, it feels like from the outside, at least you've been

00:43:04.100 --> 00:43:08.540

going through, or you just went through one of those with, with kind of the whole

00:43:08.540 --> 00:43:13.220

live activities, dynamic Island side of things, it felt like you got like into a

00:43:13.220 --> 00:43:17.900

frenzy of, uh, coming up with ideas and tweeting about it and getting a bunch of

00:43:17.900 --> 00:43:19.860

feedback and then getting those ideas in there.

00:43:19.860 --> 00:43:21.800

And it was really fun to watch from the outside.

00:43:21.800 --> 00:43:25.940

I'm curious what your experience was with that, the whole iOS 16 release cycle.

00:43:25.940 --> 00:43:31.780

Yeah, I feel like that one was some pretty ideal timing because I just released

00:43:31.780 --> 00:43:35.940

timer support, which was one of those features where I'd just been working on for

00:43:35.940 --> 00:43:39.300

ages. And, um, cause I work on it mostly in my spare time.

00:43:39.300 --> 00:43:43.580

I'd had, I guess, two kids over the last couple of years and was just not having the

00:43:43.580 --> 00:43:44.740

same evening time to work on it.

00:43:44.740 --> 00:43:47.180

So I had this feature, which I was working on trying to get time to support out.

00:43:47.220 --> 00:43:54.100

And then I think like maybe a month before iOS 16 or before like the Dynamic Island anyway,

00:43:54.100 --> 00:43:56.120

I got that out the door.

00:43:56.120 --> 00:43:59.340

And so once they showed the Dynamic Island at the keynote, it was almost like straight

00:43:59.340 --> 00:44:01.260

away like, "Oh, this is like perfect."

00:44:01.260 --> 00:44:04.860

Because one of the big problems with timer apps, the system time is great because it

00:44:04.860 --> 00:44:06.940

gets priority in the system.

00:44:06.940 --> 00:44:10.460

So when it goes off, you know that it's going off because it makes the noise and vibrates.

00:44:10.460 --> 00:44:14.640

But as a third-party app, all you can do is send a notification and the user has to go

00:44:14.640 --> 00:44:19.600

back to the app to see what's happening. And so with live activities, then you have an opportunity

00:44:19.600 --> 00:44:24.320

to kind of like break free from those bounds. And like, you can actually show the user that

00:44:24.320 --> 00:44:29.360

they've got a timer going and how long's left. And then you can't do as much when the time is

00:44:29.360 --> 00:44:33.680

finished, but I think it's still, yeah, that whole experience of like, yeah, you've got something

00:44:33.680 --> 00:44:36.640

running in the background and being able to present it to the user outside of the app was

00:44:36.640 --> 00:44:43.440

pretty awesome and yeah, perfect timing. And so yeah, pretty much as soon as the keynote finished,

00:44:43.440 --> 00:44:46.960

I quickly like mocked up what I thought it was going to look like, because I just felt like,

00:44:46.960 --> 00:44:51.200

I don't know, something about the bouncy animations just like got to me. I was like, I need to.

00:44:51.200 --> 00:44:52.960

Of the dynamic island itself?

00:44:52.960 --> 00:44:56.880

Yes. Yeah. Yeah. I think with live activities, I probably would have taken it a bit slower,

00:44:56.880 --> 00:45:00.000

but the dynamic island, I don't know, something about it just.

00:45:00.000 --> 00:45:04.320

I mean, it got everybody. It was one of those, it was one of those features where

00:45:04.320 --> 00:45:08.000

watching it in the keynote, you're like, oh man, they did it. Like,

00:45:08.880 --> 00:45:13.520

they really knocked this out of the park. I think it's similar to like the iPad cursor support,

00:45:13.520 --> 00:45:19.680

where you were just like, "Whoa, this is different in a way that Apple's different on things,

00:45:19.680 --> 00:45:23.840

but also it feels like they nailed it in a way where sometimes they're just annoying with being

00:45:23.840 --> 00:45:28.960

different." I think I made like some audible noises when I played that sort of intro video.

00:45:28.960 --> 00:45:34.160

Yeah, so I mocked up what I thought that could look like because they hadn't even released the

00:45:34.160 --> 00:45:37.840

APIs at that point. So it was sort of, it wasn't really clear what you were going to be able to do.

00:45:37.840 --> 00:45:38.340


00:45:38.340 --> 00:45:41.440

But it just kind of took a stab at it based on what they'd shown.

00:45:41.440 --> 00:45:46.940

And then, yeah, once the APIs came out, I kind of just got stuck into trying to see what it would look like.

00:45:46.940 --> 00:45:49.400

And, um, yeah, it was quite a fun experience.

00:45:49.400 --> 00:45:56.560

And then when I tweeted about it, there was a lot of sort of engagement and interest in the feature, which I think always helps when you get buy-in from other people.

00:45:56.560 --> 00:45:58.340

You're like, oh yeah, I should, I should keep going with this.

00:45:58.340 --> 00:45:59.920

Cause you know, people are going to use it.

00:45:59.920 --> 00:46:00.100


00:46:00.100 --> 00:46:06.920

Cause you were kind of one of the early like developers who jumped on it that kind of got a lot of people's attention.

00:46:06.920 --> 00:46:11.480

like, oh man, look at what this thing can be. Yeah. That was one of those times when I kind

00:46:11.480 --> 00:46:14.840

of actually hadn't really thought through what I was posting. I just did like a quick screen

00:46:14.840 --> 00:46:20.280

recording of it working and kind of threw it up. I'm thinking like, oh, you know, people might like

00:46:20.280 --> 00:46:25.640

to see this. And then it did surprisingly well. And I think like Mike Stern from Apple retweeted

00:46:25.640 --> 00:46:29.960

it, which was pretty cool. And yeah, it got a lot of interest, um, which just, yeah, helps with

00:46:29.960 --> 00:46:35.080

motivation and keeping going. So then between when that was announced and when they launched

00:46:35.080 --> 00:46:40.520

16.1, I was pretty flat out just trying to get it working. And there's a bunch of complications in

00:46:40.520 --> 00:46:44.600

the way the API works that you sort of have to work around. So, there's a lot of back and

00:46:44.600 --> 00:46:48.760

forwards and trying to figure out how to get... The constraints of the layout, I guess, are quite

00:46:48.760 --> 00:46:53.400

different to a normal UI view. So, you're just trying to work out how to build what you want

00:46:53.400 --> 00:47:00.040

within quite a constrained system was a good challenge. Now, do you feel like that excitement

00:47:00.040 --> 00:47:06.600

and engagement you were getting pre-release, did that translate into anything post-release?

00:47:06.600 --> 00:47:12.520

Like, do you think you got more write-ups included in some lists or anything from Apple?

00:47:12.520 --> 00:47:17.560

And did that make any impact on sales? Yeah, I guess it's hard to know whether the

00:47:17.560 --> 00:47:23.080

build-up before the launch was what caused it. I think one of the main things was I was fortunate

00:47:23.080 --> 00:47:28.200

enough to get featured in some of Apple's lists for the live activity support. And so,

00:47:28.920 --> 00:47:32.920

And in a few countries, it was quite high up on the list, which was awesome. And so, I think that

00:47:32.920 --> 00:47:36.440

was maybe where other publications and sites were looking to sort of build these lists.

00:47:36.440 --> 00:47:37.000

Right. Yeah. Yeah.

00:47:37.000 --> 00:47:41.720

And so, yeah, it's pretty awesome being able to kind of, I don't know, you make like a splash

00:47:41.720 --> 00:47:44.840

across the internet, I guess, where you're just like popping up in a bunch of different places.

00:47:44.840 --> 00:47:51.000

It was definitely from that was the pretty significant spike in downloads and revenue.

00:47:51.000 --> 00:47:56.600

So, yeah, I think it was really made it worthwhile because I put quite a lot into it.

00:47:56.600 --> 00:48:00.200

And then I was sort of before release day was kind of just worried like,

00:48:00.200 --> 00:48:03.480

"Oh, maybe I've done all of this and no one's going to notice or it's not going to be that useful."

00:48:03.480 --> 00:48:09.240

And so it was validating, I guess, to see it land pretty well and get some good feedback on it.

00:48:09.240 --> 00:48:14.120

And also, it's always nice to get a little revenue bump from those kind of things. So,

00:48:14.120 --> 00:48:19.400

yeah, it was really cool. Yeah, no, that makes sense. This is an aside. I didn't want to interrupt

00:48:19.400 --> 00:48:25.080

that conversation. But if anybody at Apple is listening, these complaints about the alarms

00:48:25.720 --> 00:48:32.120

not working correctly. I just have to put this out in the world because at least once a week,

00:48:32.120 --> 00:48:38.040

my wife brings this up to me that I need to put this out into the world. We need an alarm kit,

00:48:38.040 --> 00:48:46.520

like some sort of way for developers to make alarms that are not the Apple alarm app, because

00:48:46.520 --> 00:48:53.480

they're really problematic for people who rely on them for their job. My wife is one of them.

00:48:53.480 --> 00:48:56.600

She has like all these alarms that are very important for the work that she does.

00:48:56.600 --> 00:49:01.640

When she has a day off or something like that, she can't just hit a button to say,

00:49:01.640 --> 00:49:05.080

"Turn off my alarm, my weekly alarms," or anything like that.

00:49:05.080 --> 00:49:08.440

And I know there's... And trust me, I've brought them up. There's like shortcuts you could build

00:49:08.440 --> 00:49:14.440

to try and make this. But this is the exact type of thing that I or somebody should be able to

00:49:14.440 --> 00:49:20.120

build an app that's like a nice wrapper around the system alarms. And I'm sure it's not the

00:49:20.120 --> 00:49:24.560

the most important problem Apple has, but it would be really, really nice.

00:49:24.560 --> 00:49:25.760

It would be awesome.

00:49:25.760 --> 00:49:29.080

If you could send them to like home pods as well, if you could create a timer and

00:49:29.080 --> 00:49:33.160

have it like ring on a home pod, that would be, that was the kind of stuff when I

00:49:33.160 --> 00:49:36.000

was building out the timer feature, it's like, this is great, but yeah, as soon as

00:49:36.000 --> 00:49:38.880

you leave the app, it's kind of not as useful.

00:49:38.880 --> 00:49:41.640

So yeah, if you could send something to like a home pod or have it, once it's

00:49:41.640 --> 00:49:44.160

finished respond the same way the system responds.

00:49:44.160 --> 00:49:45.000


00:49:45.000 --> 00:49:45.680

That would be awesome.

00:49:45.680 --> 00:49:49.240

And I get that's like, it's like a huge undertaking because of all the.

00:49:49.240 --> 00:50:04.840

Bad actors that you'd have to work around like it'd be like notifications right where you have to give people the power to turn them off because you know Uber is going to be somehow sending you ads through alarms like that's the inevitable thing that's going to happen with any.

00:50:04.840 --> 00:50:08.840

Your phone would just be like a grenade that just could go off at any time with a siren.

00:50:08.840 --> 00:50:12.200

Yeah, because alarms can break out of the silence feature.

00:50:12.200 --> 00:50:16.620

So I get it's just like a sacred cow and that's probably more important than anything.

00:50:16.620 --> 00:50:19.120

But you know, just throwing that out there.

00:50:19.120 --> 00:50:24.480

If we're looking if you're looking for ideas for iOS 17, we'll take it just looking at

00:50:24.480 --> 00:50:27.200

an empty whiteboard like we got nothing.

00:50:27.200 --> 00:50:28.200

Here we go.

00:50:28.200 --> 00:50:30.960

It'll make at least one developer very happy.

00:50:30.960 --> 00:50:31.960

That's right.

00:50:31.960 --> 00:50:32.960

Yeah, there'll be two of us.

00:50:32.960 --> 00:50:33.960


00:50:33.960 --> 00:50:34.960

Oh, man.

00:50:34.960 --> 00:50:38.720

man. Is there anything else you want to talk about with, with crouton,

00:50:38.720 --> 00:50:43.440

any other fun, interesting secret stories you want to put out into the world?

00:50:43.440 --> 00:50:47.680

Uh, secret stories. Goodness. Um, I don't think so.

00:50:47.680 --> 00:50:51.680

No worries. I don't normally ask people that. I don't know why I went,

00:50:51.680 --> 00:50:54.200

went with that, but I wish I did have a secret story.

00:50:54.200 --> 00:50:57.560

I feel like that would be quite a good, like no to end on like this one time.

00:50:57.560 --> 00:50:58.880

You can just make something up.

00:50:58.880 --> 00:51:03.280

That's even more pressure. I'll come up as soon as this calls ended,

00:51:03.280 --> 00:51:04.400

I'll be like, I should have said that.

00:51:04.400 --> 00:51:05.240

- Perfect.

00:51:05.240 --> 00:51:06.720

Yeah, I just wanted to make sure

00:51:06.720 --> 00:51:09.020

that when you go to bed tonight,

00:51:09.020 --> 00:51:09.980

instead of sleeping,

00:51:09.980 --> 00:51:12.960

you can just rehash that question over and over

00:51:12.960 --> 00:51:14.640

and keep coming up with better answers.

00:51:14.640 --> 00:51:16.440

- You can guarantee that I'll be, yeah,

00:51:16.440 --> 00:51:17.920

replaying this whole conversation.

00:51:17.920 --> 00:51:18.760

- Yeah, yeah.

00:51:18.760 --> 00:51:20.160

That's really the goal here.

00:51:20.160 --> 00:51:23.500

To make people as uncomfortable as possible.

00:51:23.500 --> 00:51:26.080

Oh man.

00:51:26.080 --> 00:51:27.560

- You just make sure not to pitch that to them

00:51:27.560 --> 00:51:28.860

before they agree to come on.

00:51:28.860 --> 00:51:29.960

- Yeah, no, no.

00:51:29.960 --> 00:51:32.920

That's something once you get them stuck on a call

00:51:32.920 --> 00:51:37.800

they can't escape. Then you look on. Your personal enjoyment. Right, right. Exactly. Okay.

00:51:37.800 --> 00:51:45.880

I guess we can go ahead and wrap things up. But before we do, I'll ask you the question I ask

00:51:45.880 --> 00:51:50.760

everybody, which is, what's a person or people out there that have inspired you that you'd recommend

00:51:50.760 --> 00:51:56.680

others check out? Yeah. So I think I'm going to, I've got three, I think, three recommendations.

00:51:56.680 --> 00:52:01.800

The first one I've already mentioned was Daniel Gauthier with Upper Head and No Bother. I think

00:52:01.800 --> 00:52:05.640

if you use Crouton, you can definitely see that there's some inspiration there. And yeah, his

00:52:05.640 --> 00:52:13.880

apps just have a degree of polish that is quite rare these days. And he's also, yeah, really great

00:52:13.880 --> 00:52:18.760

on Twitter as well. Just, I don't know, keeps the feed a bit more lighthearted than it has been

00:52:18.760 --> 00:52:23.880

recently. And there's a little bit of, you know, cross pollination here because his,

00:52:23.880 --> 00:52:30.280

I interviewed him and his episode will be coming out as we record tomorrow. So yeah, go listen to

00:52:30.280 --> 00:52:34.280

the one before that's the thing I'm supposed to say, right? Like organic growth or something

00:52:34.280 --> 00:52:36.200

like that. Always plug. Yeah. Yeah.

00:52:36.200 --> 00:52:43.080

Second recommendation is Ryan Ashcraft, who you have had on as well. Yeah. Definitely around

00:52:43.080 --> 00:52:47.080

those early sort of days with Crouton, a lot of the work he was doing with food noms with like the,

00:52:47.080 --> 00:52:52.280

the scanning, the nutrition labels, and also just the way that he kind of like marketed food noms as

00:52:52.280 --> 00:52:56.680

well was really like, definitely inspired me with a lot of the things I've done on Crouton.

00:52:56.680 --> 00:53:03.080

Last one was Kyle Hughes, who I think is just a great, a great, a great follow on Twitter as well.

00:53:03.080 --> 00:53:05.720

Again, if you're just wanting something to like make the feed a bit more exciting,

00:53:05.720 --> 00:53:10.280

his tweets are always so, I don't know if he's crafting them, but they feel so well crafted.

00:53:10.280 --> 00:53:16.520

And so just on the point every time. And he also has a few apps as well that are really nice just

00:53:16.520 --> 00:53:20.200

in how simple they are. So I definitely recommend checking out some of his stuff.

00:53:21.080 --> 00:53:27.160

Kyle's somehow both nice, like he's not like one of these like incendiary, you know, Twitter

00:53:27.160 --> 00:53:33.480

commentators, but then somehow it feels like he's like making fun of just corporate developer life

00:53:33.480 --> 00:53:39.000

in an incredibly effective way without it punching down ever. Very, very entertaining. I can't tell

00:53:39.000 --> 00:53:45.000

you how many of his tweets I end up sharing to friends because they make me laugh so much.

00:53:45.000 --> 00:53:45.800

Definitely. Yeah.

00:53:46.520 --> 00:53:53.240

Thank you again for coming on. This is... It's been really fun watching Crouton grow over the

00:53:53.240 --> 00:53:59.320

last couple years. I guess I didn't mention it, but it's taken over mine. Like I said,

00:53:59.320 --> 00:54:05.240

we were Paprika users for forever because all my data was sitting in there. That's what the

00:54:05.240 --> 00:54:10.280

family used and it's hard to switch people over. And then I ended up trying a whole bunch of them

00:54:10.280 --> 00:54:13.880

because I just wanted to try something that was a little more modern.

00:54:14.600 --> 00:54:18.680

like you had mentioned, I've been playing with Crouton for a while and it's just,

00:54:18.680 --> 00:54:21.640

it just makes me happy to use. And finally I'm like, you know what, that's,

00:54:21.640 --> 00:54:23.560

that's it. That's why do I need,

00:54:23.560 --> 00:54:26.920

and iCloud syncing and all that. Like it,

00:54:26.920 --> 00:54:29.920

I think that was part of the thing originally was you didn't have iCloud syncing,

00:54:29.920 --> 00:54:34.720

right? Or not iCloud family sharing. And so all the pieces were in place.

00:54:34.720 --> 00:54:39.120

And so it's, it's been my go-to for, for a little bit now. And, uh,

00:54:39.120 --> 00:54:42.960

that's awesome. It makes me, it makes really happy to, uh,

00:54:43.320 --> 00:54:45.280

to like know the person who's made the thing

00:54:45.280 --> 00:54:47.000

that I'm using all the time.

00:54:47.000 --> 00:54:49.080

So thank you so much for coming on.

00:54:49.080 --> 00:54:50.160

- It's been great.

00:54:50.160 --> 00:54:53.160

- So where can people find you and your work?

00:54:53.160 --> 00:54:55.600

- That's a good question 'cause at the time of recording,

00:54:55.600 --> 00:54:58.000

you can find me on Twitter, but when this goes out,

00:54:58.000 --> 00:55:00.460

who knows where you'll be able to find me?

00:55:00.460 --> 00:55:02.520

In Christchurch, New Zealand for sure.

00:55:02.520 --> 00:55:06.040

- Yeah, as we've established, that's the place to go.

00:55:06.040 --> 00:55:08.360

- You can find me on Twitter with the handle

00:55:08.360 --> 00:55:10.200

justmedevin at the moment,

00:55:10.200 --> 00:55:12.240

and hopefully for a long time into the future,

00:55:12.240 --> 00:55:14.840

but we'll see what happens.

00:55:14.840 --> 00:55:16.120

- Do you have a website or something

00:55:16.120 --> 00:55:20.280

just in case we don't have that option?

00:55:20.280 --> 00:55:21.980

- I did start a blog recently,

00:55:21.980 --> 00:55:25.800


00:55:25.800 --> 00:55:27.200

You can find me there,

00:55:27.200 --> 00:55:30.160

but it probably won't be the most interesting thing

00:55:30.160 --> 00:55:32.560

that you'll look up, but I will be there.

00:55:32.560 --> 00:55:33.400

- Perfect.

00:55:33.400 --> 00:55:36.720

Thanks for listening.

00:55:36.720 --> 00:55:39.520

This episode was edited by Jonathan Ruiz.

00:55:39.520 --> 00:55:40.980

If you'd like to discuss the show,

00:55:40.980 --> 00:55:45.700

You can find me on Twitter @_chuckyc or tweet the show directly @LaunchedFM.

00:55:45.700 --> 00:55:50.060

I'd really appreciate a rating or review in your podcast app of choice.

00:55:50.060 --> 00:55:54.460

And you can find show notes and more at LaunchedFM.com.

00:55:54.460 --> 00:55:57.040

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